Last call for rational debate

I guess under this new definition of “incitement” used by the Vicplod, by presenting an alternative to the mainstream I may be guilty of inciting people to not do something. If it’s even possible to incite someone to non- action.

For those unable to distinguish between opposition to mandatory vaccination and opposition to vaccination, I might even be guilty.

Time is quickly running down for those so badly served by our politicians, media and health authorities . Facing termination from work, and a bamboozling dearth of information upon which to determine their actual risk of death from covid vs vaccine risk before our societies “open up” (bullshit).

These folks deserve better than what they have had so far in the way of information:

  1. The hopelessly stupid, vapid and demeaning to watch commercial media and ABC.
  2. Our head nodding politicians.
  3. Me, a frightened, raving loon.
  4. Other over- excited nuts with an internet connection.
  5. Awkward arguments from those on here who have vaxxed.
  6. Social media keen to manipulate and suppress.

You know what I mean about the vaxxed on here. There’s something about it that makes the discussion difficult.

Well, it’s time for them, or someone, to really make the argument to defend the position of getting the vaxx. I’d do it, I can actually see the argument. At this point, if you’re holding out because of political conscience reasons, I believe a case could be made that we have crossed that threshold where simply not enough are holding out against mandates for it to have effect.

The disease itself isn’t without risks. You might die holding out against vaccination.

If you’re holding out just because the bullying and coercion goes against the grain, that might not be completely rational.

But I’m not the person to make these arguments. Some of you are. Without guilt if you took it reluctantly, without fear, without the weirdness.

My missus is also a holdout, so at least I’m spared the destruction that being in a house divided entails. I have told her that whatever she decides for herself, I support 100%. The only actual advice I’ll give over vaccines is this: Support the decisions of your family even if you disagree with them.

For the last time: There are people about to lose jobs and take whatever risk there is with going unvaxxed in this new normal. Make the case for vaccination in the comments. I can’t, because I’m going to remain a holdout.

[Not medical advice, you require an appointment with a doctor for that- obviously]

103 thoughts on “Last call for rational debate”

  1. If I want to commit suicide there are more certain, quicker and less painful methods than getting the clotshot.
    OTOH those left are going to be really busy burying the bodies of the stupid. If we bother.


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  2. Personally, I’ve never had a flu shot.

    If covid is roughly in the same ballpark, based on death numbers over the last 18 months vs previous influenza seasons and deaths.
    I do not see the risk to my health, based on raw data, to take an untested vaccine, with an unknown level of risk.

    For my age and fitness, the known risk of covid is less of a threat than the unknown vaccine risk, based on available data.

    Each person should be free to assess their own health however they wish.


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  3. I guess the time to give in is when they issue the final ultimatum; get vaccinated or get sent to the internment camps for the rest of your short remaining days. Or, if not that, when the government ostensibly imposes a slow death by not allowing you to leave your home, what else can you do?


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  4. How long do you have to cook a Convid corpse for to ensure the spike proteins are destroyed? Might have one for Xmas lunch. And if it’s a pollie or journo and they say “I’m not dead yet”, there’s no need to stun them first, is there?


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  5. There is no rational debate possible.

    The reaction to the CCP virus has been completely irrational on the part of government and through the propaganda, many of the people. That’s ignoring any conspiracy theories.
    Once the initial first couple of months were over we knew the real dangers of the virus and failed to manage it rationally by simply protecting the most vulnerable. We knew older people with co-morbidities were most at risk.
    Some simple things could have been done:
    Combat crew the nursing homes. That means nobody works at more than one. Done administratively by re-arranging who works where. Nobody wants to kill grandma deliberately so just rely on temperature testing, personal responsibility and commonsense rules. The old should be allowed to determine the level of risk they want to accept to maintain normal human contact.
    Set aside hours at supermarkets etc when only the 0ver 60’s go. If they want to go at other times, fine.
    Instead of waiting for the “vaccines” to arrive, immediately just try the known safe protocols using readily available cheap and known safe drugs. These protocols were available very early on. Very likely the “vaccines” would not have been necessary and would have been unable to get EUA. Quite likely also that vaccine evading variants would not have got loose.

    Those who got the shots because they were scared will have to live with any downstream consequences. Those who got them because they were coerced and suffer irreversible consequences should be compensated. Doesn’t help the dead or their loved ones of course.


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  6. Yeah. Thanks for doing what this thread was about: TO MAKE THE CASE FOR VACCINATIONS.
    I have tried to identify a problem: The arguments for which we’re exposed to are often crap. The mainstream media is propaganda.
    This was a place for those who vaccinated to make the case of why the did without having people jump down their throats.



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  7. It’s completely rational to hold out against the bullying and coercion.

    Because governments that bully and coerce kill far more people than Covid. Giving in to them makes bullying, coercion and an eventual slide into mass-murder far more likely.

    Because governments that make irrational decisions and apply centralised control create poverty, and poverty kills more people than Covid. Giving in to them only encourages irrationality.

    You argue as though Covid is the only thing that kills people.


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  8. Because governments that bully and coerce kill far more people than Covid. Giving in to them makes bullying, coercion and an eventual slide into mass-murder far more likely.

    Because governments that make irrational decisions and apply centralised control create poverty, and poverty kills more people than Covid. Giving in to them only encourages irrationality.

    ..
    Yes.
    Agree. And the case for that has been made repeatedly on this blog, including by me.
    restating it again on this thread, which is attempting something different, is why I used the illustration I have.
    God.


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  9. I have friends and relatives who have been vaccinated.

    If you are old or unhealthy, the vaccine is less likely to kill or injure you than Covid. You are also not facing multiple decades of 6-monthly booster shots.

    For those people, getting vaccinated may make sense, and I’m wondering why this needs to be explained yet again….


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  10. Arky…

    If you agree that refusal on the grounds of bullying and coercion is rational, why did you state in your OP that it probably wasn’t?

    It’s no good appealing to God about your own inconsistency.


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  11. Plasmamortarsays:
    October 14, 2021 at 10:38 am
    Personally, I’ve never had a flu shot.

    If covid is roughly in the same ballpark, based on death numbers over the last 18 months vs previous influenza seasons and deaths.
    I do not see the risk to my health, based on raw data, to take an untested vaccine, with an unknown level of risk.

    For my age and fitness, the known risk of covid is less of a threat than the unknown vaccine risk, based on available data.

    Each person should be free to assess their own health however they wish.

    Metoo (never thought I’d be saying that) but immunocompromised as well. Wife got AZ jab so she can go see her 88yr Dad who’s been in and out of hospital for the last 18 months and she still doesn’t know if she can see him. Told her I’d get a mail order bride if the faux (did I spell that wrong) gets her. She laughed about the first part knowing I couldn’t be bothered. Alright I’ll get another dog.


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  12. “If you agree that refusal on the grounds of bullying and coercion is rational”
    ..
    I’m asking for a higher standard of argument FOR the vaccine.
    Because argument is how we arrive at a semblance of understanding.
    I have stated that I’m not the one to put that argument.
    This post invites those who are, to do so.
    Understand?


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  13. Vaccination…. SAFE AND EFFECTIVE vaccination, is a wonderful thing. Most of us know that. That is why many will have accepted it without doing the maths.

    The problem with this one is twofold.
    Firstly that they are known to be less safe than the vaccines that most of us have gladly used, so it is necessary to compare relative risks of using or not using the vaccine.
    Secondly, we are still only guessing regarding the long term risks. If you discount those risks – as an elderly person already in poor health might – then the maths may still work in favour of the vaccine. If you don’t, then the argument falls on the other side of the line.

    You cannot have a rational discussion regarding the reasons to accept the vaccine without assessing the strengths AND weaknesses of those reasons.


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  14. What would people have done if the government had done nothing, from the get go, and those pharmaceutical companies had developed vaccines to sell for whatever price they wanted?
    (We lived in a nanny state long before covid.)
    And I’m very comfortable living with the consequences of my decision, which ever it was.
    Seriously it’s like a constantly escalating wall of scaremongering, with each side trying to outdo the other.
    At least the its a pandemic! side seem to have some significant death tallies to wave around in triumph, not the birdlike billions dropping like flies from the vax! lot.
    Any moment now!


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  15. If our political class and their public health advisers had followed the pandemic guidelines that were in place prior to covid we wouldn’t be in a position of having to justify a mass vaccination program with incompletely tested and novel medical therapies. It is our misfortune to live in the stupidest of times.


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  16. Understand?

    I understand very clearly that you threw in an aside that was not relevant to tge main question, and are trying to avoid dealing with the fact that it was neither relevant, not reasoned.

    If this were simply about learning from debate, you wouldn’t be annoyed.

    Savvy?


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  17. Elizabeth is one who I’d like to see make the case here.

    agreed.
    she could talk underwater with a mouthful of marbles.
    so she should be able to make a reasoned argument


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  18. Arky, I can only give you the reasons why I have, so far, received one shot.

    I can’t argue why others should. Their reasons will be many and varied. Just as the ones for not getting it.


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  19. My argument will make sense only to Christians, and that would be Christian women living in a divided household.

    Here it is:

    Ephesians 5
    22Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

    Colossians 3

    18Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

    There will be many here who won’t like it. I have to say I don’t like it much either, and it definitely won’t sway anyone without an understanding or experience of the submission aspect of a Christian household.


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  20. Rosie…

    In context, the Spanish flu killed 50 million people out of a population that is 1/3 of that today. It had a roughly 10% CFR and a disproportionate number of those killed were young and healthy.

    One does not have to posit billions dropping dead from the vaccine in order to make a rational case against using a product that has not been adequately tested. By all means make your own decision, but don’t create artificial “sides” or stereotype those who disagree, in order to justify it.

    As has been pointed out, even what we KNOW about the current covid vaccines tells us that they kill and injure at least an order of magnitude more people than all the other vaccines in use put together. That is before we account for the extremely high probability that more are being killed and injured by the jab than are counted in the official figures.

    I say that because it is now very common for medical personnel to report that illness and death for which the jab is the most probable cause, are not being recorded as such because of the dogmatic belief that they are “safe”.

    I wish you well.


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  21. and it definitely won’t sway anyone without an understanding or experience of the submission aspect of a Christian household.

    ..
    The missus is Buddhist.
    I suspect any attempt by me to make her submit would result in my waking up one morning with a knife sticking out of my chest.


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  22. Peter
    Cheers for that. You’ll be happy to know that struth has gleefully announced my forthcoming death from the jab sometime in the next few months.

    And once again someone claiming something about death rates from vaccines has carefully avoiding mentioning the explosion, by the billions, of people getting vaccinated.
    You’d think by now excess deaths from vaccines would be showing up in the statistics everyone was flinging around last year to prove covid was a crock.


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  23. Do you want an argument for vaccinations, or an argument for someone’s personal decision to vaccinate?

    I’m in the latter category.

    I looked at the stats (from the UK) for illness and mortality for age cohort. I also looked at the stats for adverse events similarly.

    I did do some digging on the ‘unknown unknowns’ .. and there is certainly a difficult to quantify risk there.

    I then took the rational decision to be vaxxed (with the less dangerous of the two available vaccines). I’m do not understand why this would be controversial.

    I am rabidly anti- compulsory vaccination.


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  24. sorry – that was a little unclear.

    The decision was based on ‘illness and mortality of Covid for age cohort. I also looked at the stats for adverse events from vaccination similarly.’


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  25. OK Arky i have today had my first AZ. My first act of defiance was leaving the Doctors rooms immediately rather than “having” to wait 15 minutes.

    Why?
    I am in an age group where people start to die with it, so risk mitigation
    I have a co morbidity.

    Being in WA travel does not factor as McClown will probably never let us travel again. In this case I will probably move back to UK next year where I was born till it (or he) blows over, sorry NADT

    That’s it.


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  26. You can’t get umvaxxed. If I were certain of their efficaciousness I would have been done and dusted.
    I’m in a high risk group. I am as old as dirt. As you get older your six pack turns into a keg. I also have some genetic conditions.
    A fascist government putting the weights on me can kiss my arse.
    However, if it is necessary for me to travel to get vaccinated, and I do choose to travel again, they can stick me with their Frankenstein sticks. In the olden days we had to have international health certificates. I’ve had more pricks than Parliament.
    I’m amazed I’ve lived this long, particularly given my curriculum vitae and my pastimes. I just hope I leave a good looking corpse.


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  27. I also wanted to say it was a pity to see Lizzie on the end of some crap last night.

    And Rosie. Both are friends.

    There is enough sinewy, inedible fare on the right’s plate as it is without making enemies of people who have chosen to be vaxxed.


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  28. There is an evil, orchestrated escalation of all things occurring in the world right now; a policy by shadowy figures in corporations, bureaucracies and policing to use covid – and the stepping stone to nett zero – to control the world’s population and suspend all semblance of democratic sovereignty.

    I am not a conspiracy theorist. This is real.


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  29. Washington Times Editorial – Vaccine mandate overkill: Biden targets COVID-19 but hits liberty

    Historically, vaccine mandates for childhood diseases like diphtheria, tetanus, and chickenpox are nothing new. Why, then, are certain cohorts resisting the president’s decrees? It may be the astronomical rate of adverse vax reactions that have some Americans fretting over the choice between job and jab.

    The number from the administration’s own Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) is telling. U.S. deaths resulting from COVID-19 inoculations conducted January through September 2021 totaled 7,437. The number of deaths from all other vaccines from 1990 to the present: just 5,129. These include the influenza vaccine, which has logged a death rate of 0.35 per million, 2006-2021. The death rate for COVID-19 vaccines from 2020 to the present stand in sharp contrast: 18.71 deaths per million, or 53 times more lethal.

    By comparison, the chance of being struck by lightning is vanishingly small — 2 in a million. Yet Americans are urged to take cover at the first rumble of thunder. Is it any wonder, then, that some — particularly those in youthful age categories with a virus death rate of essentially zero — conclude the risks of vaccination aren’t worth the rewards?


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  30. You want the real answer?

    The clusterfuck that the whole COVID handling has been, from the chinks, the WHO and down from there, makes rational evaluation of pros and cons of vaccination impossible ie. one might as well throw a coin in order to make their decision.

    The unholy melange of:
    extant racism (towards China),
    rivers of greed (Pharma),
    political patronage (WHO-China),
    anti Trumpism (CDC, Fauci),
    alternative-media-fanned alternatives (IVM, HCQ)
    criminal MSM fear-mongering
    and the WEF-Never-Let-A-Crisis-Go-To-Waste machinations of most governments
    have ensured NO DATA can be believed.

    Flawed testing, flawed/changing case-definitions, flawed morbidity/mortality data… I don’t believe any of it.

    The least worst quality data option for me was the Oxford risk calculator.
    I based my decision on that, with the understanding that, although nothing is certain, even that is infinitely more reliable than any authority-based advice these days.


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  31. “C.L.says:
    October 14, 2021 at 12:19 pm
    There is an evil, orchestrated escalation of all things occurring in the world right now; a policy by shadowy figures in corporations, bureaucracies and policing to use covid – and the stepping stone to nett zero – to control the world’s population and suspend all semblance of democratic sovereignty.

    I am not a conspiracy theorist. This is real.”

    Agree…none of what is happening is accidental. It is all designed.


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  32. The missus is Buddhist.
    I suspect any attempt by me to make her submit would result in my waking up one morning with a knife sticking out of my chest.

    Nobody would blame her.


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  33. I am not a conspiracy theorist. This is real.

    to the cultural marxist of any faction, this all appears as opportunity.
    the signalling works for them without direct communication
    the much touted ‘build back better’ is less a specific plan than it is a broadcast call to arms.

    these things are not conspiracy theories
    the reformers have been messaging for years about what they want and how theyre gonna get.
    they know exactly who is the way too.

    talk about ‘intersectionality’ … youse are at the intersection.

    cis-gendered? bad
    climate-denier? bad
    anti-vax? bad
    politically-right? bad
    wont bow to feminist stand-point? bad
    religious? bad

    there are only two ways out.
    –pick a team
    –fight and die are the same thing

    Bruce of Newk(?) was right when he said yesterday that revolutions only ever come from the left.

    If ya haven’t recognized yet … youse are living in one right now


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  34. Isn’t there a couple of verses after that one about husband’s loving their wives as Christ loved the church?
    A husband cannot demand a wife violate her conscience, your first obedience is always to God.


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  35. Ephesians 5
    22Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

    Colossians 3

    18Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

    This is indeed as it should be. But the good husband who reads this as permission to be a martinet or an asshole is not imitating the Lord (or any holy role model, gentile or otherwise).

    My Mum took a vow to obey my father but in 60 years of marriage, Dad never forced any submission to his will. On certain matters, Mum respected that somebody had to decide and that somebody was him. A rare thing but a safeguard and very important to family unity. The good husband is like the good officer. He doesn’t lightly interfere with the Gunnery-Sergeant who is actually running the barracks. IMO, young women today crave without knowing it this kind of lover/leader/equal.


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  36. Isn’t there a couple of verses after that one about husband’s loving their wives as Christ loved the church?
    A husband cannot demand a wife violate her conscience, your first obedience is always to God.

    True. I don’t see the vaccines as inherently sinful. The motives behind them might be.

    My husband has risked his life for me one one occasion and serious injury on others. He has already demonstrated sacrificial love. I won’t say more because of privacy.

    In obeying him, I am obeying God. I can’t see all ends.


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  37. And if you think for one moment I was forced, you are wrong. His deep worry for my health was his motive. And yes, the whole thing can be twisted around various scenarios to give me an “out”. I’ve watched this play out with others over a lifetime.

    I promised him I would have the “vaccine” when one that was acceptable came up. I thought I’d have more time, at least until next year, but I didn’t. Moderna became available here on demand. This is all old ground that I’ve talked about before.

    If you want to make a theological argument for me disobeying my husband’s heartfelt and loving request, knock yourselves out.


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  38. What is inherently sinful by a country mile and can have no grey areas in a Christian’s thinking is the segregation and discrimination that comes with the “Vaccine Pass”.

    This is evil. It must be resisted, individually and corporately.

    That is why church for my little congregation won’t return until all can return. We want no outcasts.


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  39. Not for a moment Calli.
    I was just pointing out there is a line in the sand for submission to husbands.

    At the end of the day, no matter what the unit, family, church, whatever only one person can be in charge.
    I can’t emphasise enough the importance of the witness of Christian husbands and wives doing their darnedest to live as Christ commanded, it is always a joy to see.
    You’ll only get applause from me.


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  40. IMO, young women today crave without knowing it this kind of lover/leader/equal.

    If only there were more young men willing to take up the responsibility of family leadership.


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  41. For scifi authors/readers: a world where everyone on the planet is scheduled to drop dead from the jab and only a few pure bloods remain. Would the majority jabbed take vengeance on the minority jabbers? Would the pure bloods survive the upheaval?
    However you write the book, it will be an interesting read.


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  42. Arky – OT but I went to look at your YT channel yesterday and found I could run individual Model A vids from DDG but all the text was greyed out, including your YT icon. And I couldn’t get to your page at all.

    It turned out that was because I was accessing via the US on the VPN that I use. When I changed to an Australian server all was visible.

    You might wish to check your channel settings, whether there is geoblocking going on, or if YT is shadow banning you because class-enemy.


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  43. For scifi authors/readers: a world where everyone on the planet is scheduled to drop dead from the jab and only a few pure bloods remain.

    Isn’t that loosely “I am Legend”?

    “It is set in New York City after a virus, which was originally created to cure cancer, has wiped out most of mankind, leaving Neville as the last human in New York, other than nocturnal mutants. “


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  44. You might wish to check your channel settings, whether there is geoblocking going on, or if YT is shadow banning you because class-enemy.

    ..
    Ta Bruce.
    Screw Youtube.
    My channel videos have had 90 000 views.
    Around four months ago they throttled it.
    I get one third the views I used to.
    I searched through the settings and can’t see anything on my end that could be doing it.
    I’ll use Rumble for most vids from now on.


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  45. Arky says:
    October 14, 2021 at 11:02 am
    Because governments that bully and coerce kill far more people than Covid. Giving in to them makes bullying, coercion and an eventual slide into mass-murder far more likely.

    Because governments that make irrational decisions and apply centralised control create poverty, and poverty kills more people than Covid. Giving in to them only encourages irrationality.
    ..
    Yes.
    Agree. And the case for that has been made repeatedly on this blog, including by me.
    restating it again on this thread, which is attempting something different, is why I used the illustration I have.
    God.

    Arky, perhaps that response is because there is no real, honest, solid, irrefutable case to be made FOR these experimental and already arguably damaging jabs.


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  46. Arky, perhaps that response is because there is no real, honest, solid, irrefutable case to be made FOR these experimental and already arguably damaging jabs.

    ..
    I think there is.
    There is enough in doubt that you could build such an argument.
    I don’t agree with it, but it’s worth someone on here doing so.
    You can’t be confident in your position until it’s been tested against the very best argument on the other side.
    Because of the calibre of the duds on the other side of this, we haven’t seen it. The mainstream media is appalling.
    We need to see the argument for the other side. Those about to make life changing decisions need the information.
    Deaths by age group for covid and vaccines. The latest on infections by age group for vaxxed and unvaxxed.
    The logic behind decisions made in the absence of that data and how conclusions were reached.
    This is important shit. Life and death shit.
    The information needs to be there.


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  47. I followed Gilas’ link.

    The table shows the absolute risk of catching and dying COVID-19 over a 90-day period based on data from the first peak of the pandemic. There is a comparison with the risk for a person of the same age and sex but with no risk factors. The relative risk is the absolute risk divided by this average risk.
    Absolute risk (a) Absolute risk with no risk factors (b) Relative risk (a/b)
    COVID associated death 0.0074% 1 in 13514 0.0071% 1 in 14085 1.0423
    COVID associated hospital admission 0.0509%

    It confirmed what I already knew: I’m not at risk from getting really ill from the virus and nor am I a risk to anyone else.

    I’ve always had a yearly ‘flu shot and probably would have followed the lead of others on this. Except I chose to check a few things out. From reading and watching lots of stuff about these “therapies,” which I thank the many contributors on the old and new Cat(s), I can’t see a valid reason to have any of the ones that are not conventional vaccines.

    Also, a very close relative has had a very bad reaction to the AZ and which I’ve previously written about.

    I am also unhappy that there are actual treatments (un)available that, from all evidence, would cure anyone contracting the disease.

    We have been dudded by the people whose job it is to manage, without harm, our nation. They are all a disgrace. There must be a reckoning.

    And as to the “if they’d only known;” the prime role of every government is to protect the nation. That does not mean that the government has the right to take away from the citizens their right to decide their own needs.


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  48. Notice that this post will damn me either way: If the vaccines turn out to be toxic sludge I’ll be damned for providing a forum to defend them. If the vaccines save the world I’ll be damned as an anti- vaxx deplorable.


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  49. Buster, you’ll chased outta town in yr Model A by Charlie Chaplin and the Keystone Cops

    We will all be laughing our arses off in our Wellcamp Freedom Cells


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  50. In the list of “Things that kill you in the night”, chyflu is a long way down the list.
    When the CCP launches all out simultaneous attacks on Japan and Taiwan and things go nuclear hot, then we will find out how the peasant rating system works.


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  51. calli says:
    October 14, 2021 at 12:30 pm
    Heh. I see my “argument” went down like a lead balloon. I’m hardly surprised after 2,000 years of females ignoring it.

    Calli, what if the husband is wrong, or a brute, or in ignorance and sheer bloody-mindedness leads his wife and family to ruin, misery and death? Don’t we encourage female victims of the brutal to take control of their own lives to escape that situation?

    In my upbringing, the Lord helps those who help themselves, and this most definitely includes doing your own research and not blindly following the edicts of “the man of the house” who can just as easily be wrong or evil as anyone else. Surely we owe whatever God of creation we acknowledge, or even just the miraculous fact of our own individual existence regardless of beliefs, to take the best care of ourselves – whatever that may be in the circumstances.

    Your decision and reasons are your own, and if you’re comfortable with that, good on you – your life and most definitely your choices.
    That’s exactly what this thread is about.

    But please don’t imply by your comment above that posters here not actively and enthusiastically endorsing the Biblical exhortation to slavishly follow the man of the house is somehow wrong, or immoral or to be sneered at because “religion”. I hope that wasn’t your intent, but it’s difficult to interpret it otherwise.


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  52. Sunday Telegraph, 10 October, 2021, page 12:

    Vaxxed should be ready to get virus by Sue Dunlevy

    Paywalled story, but here is same story via

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10077053/Why-vaccinated-Australians-shouldnt-freak-catch-Covid-GOOD-them.html

    “. Experts saying cases will increase but that people should ‘definitely want’ virus
    . They say a mix of vaccination and having the virus will provide most protection”

    I think I’ll wait until they get their story straight.

    I think I will be waiting a long while.


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  53. calli says:
    October 14, 2021 at 1:06 pm
    […]
    If you want to make a theological argument for me disobeying my husband’s heartfelt and loving request, knock yourselves out.

    We didn’t raise the Biblical bit, we’re just responding to it with our own thoughts.


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  54. “. Experts saying cases will increase but that people should ‘definitely want’ virus
    . They say a mix of vaccination and having the virus will provide most protection”

    A reasoned argument?

    So: getting the virus means that I don’t get the virus, got it.


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  55. Bushkid, I raised that in my comment at 1:06.

    The only reason I brought marital obedience into it was because it formed my reasoning, which I think is what Arky was wanting.

    I don’t expect anyone to think the way I do. Also, I hate obeying. Anything. 😀

    If a husband forces his wife to do something that is contrary to her conscience’s dictates, then he is the wrongdoer and will answer accordingly. And boy, will he have to answer. The Judge of all the earth will do right. For my own part, my husband desperately wanted me to have the AZ but I said, no. So he waited as did I.

    Also, God really doesn’t help those who help themselves, though he does demand personal responsibility. The great thread of the Gospel is that he helps those who are helpless.


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  56. Arky says:
    October 14, 2021 at 2:19 pm

    Seriously, if there was a genuine argument in favour of jabbing everyone with this still experimental concoction (including and particularly under such duress as we’re seeing!) it should have been made by now, and openly debated in public with all “sides” honestly able to present their cases.

    We don’t see that – in fact we see the exact opposite.
    We see:
    total abandonment of a pandemic response plan that as recently as 2019 had been deemed even by the WHO as perfectly practical and appropriate,
    media hype and lies,
    politicians’ hype and lies,
    bureaucrats’ hype and lies,
    secret contracts signed with big Pharma,
    total indemnity granted to big Pharma and doctors who administer these jabs,
    criminalisation of prescription or use of safe drugs that could help,
    arrogant dismissal of overseas studies that have shown those other drugs/protocols as being both safe and effective,
    silencing of GPs who want to provide proper information to patients,
    fudging of statistics,
    police brutality enforcing draconian and arguably unhelpful rules,
    sports teams and their WAGS, celebrities and the wealthy granted special privileges while we ordinary people are callously denied the right to be with dying family or even to return home from another state in our own country,
    segregation of society on jabbed -v- unjabbed status,
    devastation of businesses and livelihoods,
    massive public debt racked up,
    children locked out of face to face schooling,
    missed diagnoses and treatments for other life-threatening problems,
    despair and suicides
    and more…

    All this is happening amid a total absence of clear, fearless and rational debate. We don’t even see a hint that that debate might occur. (Rather like the whole climate disaster sh*tfight too, don’t you think?)

    But we don’t, we never see any irrefutable argument put forward FOR these experimental jabs. If there was one out there, don’t you think we’d have seen it by now? It’s always “just trust us”, and “the Science!”, and “the experts say”, and “for the greater good”, and “just have the f***ing jab FFS”. Personally, I need more evidence than that.


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  57. Arky says:
    October 14, 2021 at 2:34 pm
    Notice that this post will damn me either way: If the vaccines turn out to be toxic sludge I’ll be damned for providing a forum to defend them. If the vaccines save the world I’ll be damned as an anti- vaxx deplorable.

    No you won’t. You’ve merely provided a platform for the arguments to be made. We’re making them as we see them, even if perhaps forthrightly. No rancour or ill-feelings necessary, and none direct towards you.


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  58. Also, God really doesn’t help those who help themselves…

    That’d be the heresy of Pelagianism.

    Some say it’s the natural religion of the Englishman.

    Pelagius was a Brit, of course.


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  59. Logic dictates that one should be pretty bloody careful about taking any of the vaccines because the government has indemnified the manufacturing companies etc. from any legal action so if you are maimed and or killed by subjecting yourself to the “jab” you can whistle Dixie for years trying to take the government on in a court of law, a court of law funded by the taxpayers, a lose, lose situation. Bear in mind that our constitution is supposed to protect us but it isn’t for the State Premiers and one of the worst examples of PM since Malcolm Fraser are ignoring the constitution with impunity thus far and look like continuing to do so. People should not be forced to be vaccinated by any of the default schemes the State and Federal Govts. are pressuring us with aided and abetted by the media for the Nuremburg Convention is supposed to prevent that happening but it isn’t, so if one considers all the above and gets the “jab” then so be it, their choice. At fourscore years of age and allergic to every damn vaccination in the Galaxy for most of them have produced a violent reaction, even a paralysed leg from the Salk vaccine, I am going to pass thanks, and to fill in time[edited- Arky]That, and any other “free trial for 30 days” stuff the snake oil salesmen flog. Subtlety is the go when one is aged.
    moderated

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  60. incoherent ramblersays:
    October 14, 2021 at 3:29 pm
    It’s done.
    I have decided to be xxx vacillated.

    Have you been vaccinated?
    Yes, I’ve been vacillated.
    Perfect.


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  61. Can someone defend the vax to me.

    I think I am at the stage where I don’t want to because :
    1. I don’t think I have a high risk of death from COVID at my age and health.
    2. The vax does not stop spread so I don’t see the “common good” in me getting it.
    3. There is a small chance that the vax could do some harm.
    4. I don’t want my kids to get it as the risk/benefit ratio is stacked against it (+plus point 2 above)
    5. Being raised in a Pentecostal doomsday cult has given me a real aversion to partaking in things that that control the ability to buy and sell. (strangely my family still in it are all for the vax)
    6. I am stubborn and don’t think we should be compelled to this.

    I have told my kids if they really want the jab then I will support them in it, but my oldest (teenage) son just came home today and said that he will not be allowed back to work next week if he is not jabbed. He really does not want it but is quite down because it was his job that really got him through the last year as the uni campus was closed.

    I have been told that I am not allowed to leave the house for work next week unless vaxed. Being regional Vic mean next week there are more restrictions on us, as up until now I am free to leave.

    Can someone make a compelling reason to get Vaxxed? I am looking at maybe taking some long service leave to maybe work with my son on the property in the hope that some sanity returns next year.


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  62. I have a vacuous certificate from my doctor.

    It was reproted on the news today that a Queensland woman has been charged with using a protected title while not being registered to do so.

    It seems she issued over 600 medical certificates granting exemptions from vaccination and other covid related mandates.


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  63. I have been holding out. The Misus has cracked and will get it, but I support the freedom of her choice, unlike the Facist so called ‘government’. Don’t really want the young kids to get it though. I have saved enough to take at least a year off if necessary mainly to confirm the vax’d haven’t been poisoned and to ‘lay flat’ for a while. I’ll be paying close attention to the northern hemisphere winter, but given the specter of the imminent WEF New World Order, I think they will keep locking down and mandating more ‘jabs’.

    My guess is that they will collapse the economy early next year then implement the digital currencies linked to the ‘app’ and pay a UBI with extreme conditions. All will be forced onto this system. Now that the ‘governments’ know that 95% of people will accept extreme controls, implementation is now inevitable.
    moderated

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  64. It was reproted on the news today that a Queensland woman has been charged with using a protected title while not being registered to do so.

    It seems she issued over 600 medical certificates granting exemptions from vaccination and other covid related mandates.

    Good on her.


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  65. So let’s see why you should get vaxxed:
    The “vax” doesn’t stop you catching the Wuflu.
    You can pass it on to others.
    It is very questionable how long any protection from a severe case lasts, if at all.
    Once the “protection” expires you may be more vulnerable to a severe case.
    It is uncertain whether your immune system gets damaged by getting the vax making you vulnerable to cancers, other virii etc.
    There is a very high rate of death and a much higher one of morbidity if you get the vax.
    There is NO knowledge of longer term effects.
    Getting the vax will, in their eyes, hopefully inoculate the political class against losing the next election, so there is that.
    Yeah, totally get the vax, what are you waiting for?
    If you do this we’ll save you spot at the camp, near the showers.


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  66. There is an evil, orchestrated escalation of all things occurring in the world right now; a policy by shadowy figures in corporations, bureaucracies and policing to use covid – and the stepping stone to nett zero – to control the world’s population and suspend all semblance of democratic sovereignty.

    I am not a conspiracy theorist. This is real.

    I have been grappling with exactly this. Everything I see and read has an undercurrent of approaching doom that I am unable to rationalise or comprehend. There is no-one in my life at the moment with whom I can calmly discuss this sense of helplessness to try and tease out the various threads and make it to a coherent understanding of what is going on.
    Whatever it is, my internal radar does not like it one bit and has serious concerns about where its heading.


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  67. There is no-one in my life at the moment with whom I can calmly discuss this sense of helplessness to try and tease out the various threads and make it to a coherent understanding of what is going on.

    That’s what dover’s Cat is for, Megan.


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  68. Hm.
    Hmmmm.

    I am fully jabbed with the frankenvax (AZ) now.
    My elderly Mum isn’t, by her choice which I respect. You people whose judgement I respect also are not.

    Original case for getting jabbed, to me:

    1)The jab will reduce the risk that I transmit infection to others. I owe a duty to the many vulnerable elderly and chemo-undergoing and otherwise compromised parents, parents in-law, workmates and church family to minimise the risk that I will bring them infection.
    2) A jab will reduce the risk that I get infected, and potentially reduce the severity of consequences if I am infected. I owe my wife and my family to stay as alive and fit as I reasonably can.
    3) Me being jabbed is a valuable part of a population-level public health strategy even if I suffer adverse results as an individual.
    4) I assessed the likelihood of adverse jab reaction as moderate and acceptable. This is based on the conditional approval, the fact that SOME data had been released, and accepting the risk to mitigate what I saw as a moderate population-level hazard when the bug gets loose in WA.

    Modifications to the case for getting jabbed, based on later received information:
    1) The intervening months have not shown more adverse reactions to the jab than I expected from the early data. I know individuals who had evidence of clots. They did not die or get worse. Longer-term negative effects remain unknown.
    2) The assumption that a vax is a strong preventative for the jabbed one getting sick, has been shown to be untrue for Chicom flu.
    3) The assumption that getting jabbed will mean I can’t infect others has been shown to be untrue for Chicom flu.
    4) The people who said that Governments will not release their emergency powers arrogated at the first lockdown, have been proved true. They are taking more powers and being bigger arseholes than I would have believed possible given the non-severity of the actual situation on the ground.
    5) Legislated masking, social distancing and massive contact tracing have not been shown to have better outcomes than free choice to manage our own risks. In fact, the data have not been widely presented that would let people be properly informed about what actions are effective against what hazards.
    6) I still don’t want to start a revolution and give the crazies in power in the public sector an excuse to over-react against ordinary decent citizens. Nevertheless, consequences to should ensue.


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  69. Chris
    I don’t believe your second 2) is correct.

    There is plenty of statistical evidence that getting vaccinated significantly reduces your risk of hospitalisation and death.
    It is also true that that effectiveness wanes over time and more quickly for people with weaker immune systems which is why pfizer and moderna are giving six month boosters.
    I haven’t heard whether astrazeneca is gearing up for boosters.
    And although there is no doubt vaccinated people can get and transmit covid it does appear that the highly vaccinated Scandinavian counties have reduced the circulation of covid despite going out of lockdown
    .covid reproduction rate Denmark


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  70. Interesting points.
    But why do people talk about these shots as vaccines?
    In the traditionally accepted sense of the word, they are not.
    You can still catch covid and still pass covid on, even if you are double shot + booster.
    Think about the smallpox vaccine – a true vaccine. Once you were vaccinated, you could not catch smallpox or pass it on. That is how smallpox was officially wiped out.
    There are many other worries regarding these shots – and they all relate to how they work – or, it seems increasingly to be the case, don’t work (look at Israel).


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  71. That’s what dover’s Cat is for, Megan.

    I am immensely grateful for that, Roger. I have to talk to think when I am problem solving or making decisions, it’s how I get clear on stuff. So I’m talking to myself a lot. Plus I’m guaranteed intelligent conversation!
    This forum has kept me sane at least. And given me a great deal more to puzzle over. An added bonus is that there are a lot of good laughs to be had.


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  72. There is an evil, orchestrated escalation of all things occurring in the world right now; a policy by shadowy figures in corporations, bureaucracies and policing to use covid – and the stepping stone to nett zero – to control the world’s population and suspend all semblance of democratic sovereignty. I am not a conspiracy theorist. This is real.

    I have been grappling with exactly this. Everything I see and read has an undercurrent of approaching doom that I am unable to rationalise or comprehend. There is no-one in my life at the moment with whom I can calmly discuss this sense of helplessness to try and tease out the various threads and make it to a coherent understanding of what is going on. Whatever it is, my internal radar does not like it one bit and has serious concerns about where its heading.

    I agree. The monolithic lock-step approach toward centralisation is unbelieveable. Listening to various sources suggest that this has had detailed planning. And it appears there is serious money behind it. The Corona Investigative Committee intends to address it in the courts:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJXCG3tXwj4
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2YZAnKeGmM


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  73. “The forest kept shrinking but the trees kept voting for the axe. For the axe was clever and convinced them that since his handle was wood, he was one of them” – – West Asian Fable


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  74. I’m a holdout, but probably for not much longer.

    I’m in an industry and working for a company that has practically mandated the Vax through government intervention. So my justification is as follows.

    If I don’t and enough do potentially I can keep my position. But the crux of the Vax issue is open borders. If I don’t the inevitable influx of early adopter, cuck eastern staters will flow back into the industry and we will be swamped with compliant east coasters who continually make decisions that fuck this country.

    There’s no winning for non-compliant ‘conservatives’, there’s no revolution, get by as best you can because everything is a compromise.


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  75. If I don’t and enough do potentially I can keep my position. But the crux of the Vax issue is open borders. If I don’t the inevitable influx of early adopter, cuck eastern staters will flow back into the industry and we will be swamped with compliant east coasters who continually make decisions that fuck this country.

    I dont see any harm in taking 6 to 12 months off to see how it goes. If you have experience then you’ll be able to get another job after getting the clot shot.

    I want to delay for the following reasons:
    1. There is no long term safety data.
    2. The government ‘mandating’ a medical procedure is morally wrong.
    3. The early you get the shot, the earlier you’ll be forced to get a booster. Every shot increases the change of dangerous side effects.
    4. Even getting the clot shot will not bring back much ‘freedom’. When/if I get it, I want no restrictions what-so-ever. But I can bet that come winter we will be locking down again regardless of vax status.


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  76. Arky, this morning you asked me to contribute to your thread on the decision to vaxx or not.

    I hope my answer here to you this morning was satisfactory. I’ve just looked at the thread and congratulate you on it heartily. It is a really good read over all of the issues, from many of the Cats we know in the Open Forum. It goes all the way from the Oxford algorithm to Pelagius and everything inbeteween.

    And that is the glory of the Cat we all know and love.
    [No wuz- Arky]


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  77. Arky

    For the last time: There are people about to lose jobs and take whatever risk there is with going unvaxxed in this new normal. Make the case for vaccination in the comments. I can’t, because I’m going to remain a holdout.

    No one can make a blanket case for vaccination against CCP bio-weapon as I believe it’s morally wrong to do so. Every single decision is a personal and the idea that the government can mandate such a thing is monstrous.

    Losing your job over this decision is just fucking wicked.
    Oh, I decided in favor of getting the jab.


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  78. Having said what I said, I’d also like to comment on this dishonest bullshit posted by Faulty 2

    Eyrie says:
    October 14, 2021 at 5:19 pm

    So let’s see why you should get vaxxed:

    Okay let’s.

    The “vax” doesn’t stop you catching the Wuflu.

    The vax doesn’t eliminate the risk of contagion, but it most certainly reduces the risk against the old variant and to a lessor extent the new variant .

    You can pass it on to others.

    Yep, you can.

    It is very questionable how long any protection from a severe case lasts, if at all.

    It most likely lasts 12 months, but we don’t know for certain at this stage.

    Once the “protection” expires you may be more vulnerable to a severe case.

    Bullshit.

    It is uncertain whether your immune system gets damaged by getting the vax making you vulnerable to cancers, other virii etc.

    Highly unlikely. Also, if someone is that concerned, they can opt for the AZ, which is essentially a re-purposed flu shot and not newfangled examples based on mRNA.

    There is a very high rate of death and a much higher one of morbidity if you get the vax.

    Bullshit.

    There is NO knowledge of longer term effects.

    We know period of high risk is three months and beyond that the risk is minimal. It’s obviously not zero, but for our purposes it is.

    Getting the vax will, in their eyes, hopefully inoculate the political class against losing the next election, so there is that.

    Hardly a reason in determining if one should or shouldn’t be vaxxed. That sounds awfully like a case of cutting off one’s nose to spite your face.

    Yeah, totally get the vax, what are you waiting for?

    Whatev.

    If you do this we’ll save you spot at the camp, near the showers.

    Just an idiotic comment coming from a snowflake bullshit artist.


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  79. Interesting discussion of the reasons why people made the decisions they have. Thank you people. Restate the obvious: None of it is medical advice and you require an appointment with a doctor to run concerns past them. Get a good one you can trust and MAKE AN APPOINTMENT.
    ..
    At this time even to invite people to engage in critical thought is said by the New York Times to be akin to misinformation.


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