Celestial Empire says, No


I’ve been puzzled for a while as to the considerable animus felt and directed towards China but a recent conversation between Stephen W. Carlson and the Black Horse provides a bit of background that is clarifying. Since Nixon went to Beijing, then largely an effort to distance China from the Soviet Union’s sphere of influence, the US/ Global American Empire (GAE) has sought to integrate China into an international order of which it has largely controlled. From the Most Favored Nation status and the development of open cities/ special economic zones, reintegrating Hong Kong into China, hosting the 2008 Summer and 2022 Winter Olympics, offshoring manufacturing to mainland China, and the like, the effort has been one of attempting to integrate China into the global economic order in which the GAE holds the whip hand.

The overt hope was that rising Chinese incomes would Westernize the demos and elite, but the Chinese elite have largely resisted efforts to undermine their influence, whether through NGOs or other non-local institutions that are not directly or indirectly under their control. Along with this, it has resisted efforts at economic integration into the Western economic sphere that could led to its vassalization. The development of institutions and relationships like the Belt and Road project, BRICS, Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, and the like, should be all considered efforts at the establishment of alternatives to Western integration without which it would be vulnerable to Western interference. If Xi’s reign has involved any principal aim it has been the determination to reaffirm and buttress Chinese sovereignty.

The GAE’s project of vassalizing China under the auspices of democratization and economic integration has now failed. The 2000s represent the last decade in which this remained a plausible prospect. Events since then, not least the economic and financial sanctions visited upon Russia, have simply confirmed the prudence of China’s decision to establish parallel organisations, markets, and relationships that would allow it to resist pressure exerted on it by the GAE. I dare say that the venom directed at the Chinese, and in particular, Xi, is largely because of this failure.


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Speedbox
July 9, 2024 1:05 pm

…..but a recent conversation between Stephen W. Carlson and the Black Horse provides a bit of background that is clarifying. Since Nixon went to Beijing, then largely an effort to distance China from the Soviet Union’s sphere of influence, the US/ Global American Empire (GAE) has sought to integrate China into an international order of which it has largely controlled. 

That’s true but was silly. Prior to Xi’s Presidency there was Hu (2002-2012) and prior to him there was Jiang (1993-2002). Both were committed communists and, in any event, the CCP was in full control. Neither Hu nor Jiang offered anything that looked like they might bring China into the Western tent. More, they recognised the opportunity to rejuvenate China, increase national wealth, expand their military and global footprint whilst maintaining their communist ideals. The West was played for fools.

Separately, we can draw parallels to the hope that what remained of the Russian Federation after the collapse of the USSR would further collapse into 12-13 independent nations. Yeah, nah, that was never going to happen. In fairness, the West was more successful in curtailing Russian growth but that has come to zero with the China/Russia alliance.

It seems to me that some of these grand plans are thought up by analysts who sell the idea to gullible politicians, but they lack any reality or understanding of the target nation.

Arky
July 9, 2024 2:14 pm

Finally comes out in full blown support of the Chinese Communist Party.
Utterly demented.

I’ve been puzzled for a while as to the considerable animus felt and directed towards China

No shit you’re puzzled. Bewildered might be the better description.
There’s no way with you. You’re gone.

John H.
John H.
July 9, 2024 4:44 pm

The GAE’s project of vassalizing China under the auspices of democratization and economic integration has now failed. 

Perhaps that was a rationalization allowing corporations to take advantage of lax labour laws and other regulations to maximise profits.

The program failed because prediction is difficult. Often the best we can do is place our bets. China is doing the same and will face the same risks. The venom is because China is continually threatening Taiwan which is also a threat against the Philippines, Japan, and Vietnam. China wants to do what the USA did. It wants to be a global power that can intimidate nations at will. The big difference is the USA did that at a time when no nation had any possibility of militarily intimidating it. Now China is trying to emulate that position.

JC
JC
July 9, 2024 4:58 pm

Dover

I think it’s time for an intervention.

JC
JC
July 9, 2024 5:13 pm

The thing about Taiwan is that we made them think that Taiwan was part of China,

Dude, you’re just making it up as you go along. It doesn’t matter what the infamous and evil “GAE” thought and said. It’s what the Taiwanese people think and want.

At least, I have to say, you’re consistent. You support Putin’s land grab but unlike others, you also support China’s future attempt. That’s consistency at least.

JC
JC
July 9, 2024 5:21 pm

I don’t think WSJ op-eds, Daily Wire videos, and the like are going to help. If anything, they will make me more contemptuous of their positions.

Foreign Affairs magazine is Okay though? 🙂

Roger
Roger
July 9, 2024 5:55 pm

I’ve been puzzled for a while as to the considerable animus felt and directed towards China…

Eh?

Define China.

Last edited 12 days ago by Roger
Roger
Roger
July 9, 2024 6:07 pm

That’s true but was silly. 

The Western liberal conceit of invincible & irresistable cultural superiority.

Very dangerous and not just in regard to the CCP.

Arky
July 9, 2024 8:19 pm

The entire world has gone insane.
I think covid has perturbed some minds and revealed others as always being somewhat lacking.
This alternative history shit which allows people to act like progressives always did and ignore the truly horrific nature of Mao and Stalin and pretend we aren’t dealing with their direct descendants or that there is any, ANY correspondence between the nature of the communist bloc and the Western peoples of the twentieth century is both astonishing and disturbing.

Speedbox
July 10, 2024 11:11 am

The 90s were a heady period for the GAE. They had grand plans in various theatres. The plan itself worked on other nations but it was always going to be difficult with a nation as large and as socially distinctive as China, and one with an elite that was still independent of the West.

Indeed. And perhaps we should add that not only were the Chinese elite (CCP) independent of the West, but they were also suspicious. Those individuals didn’t live in a vacuum. They were well aware of other American activities globally and, I suspect, examined the opportunities and options.

What are the long-term national goals bearing in mind we will never allow our power to be diluted? How can the Western offers be leveraged without compromising, and in fact enhancing, our ‘glorious national destiny’.

The rat cunning of individuals, and especially when acting as a communist government collective, can never be underestimated.

KevinM
KevinM
July 10, 2024 1:37 pm

I can’t recall anything about Kristofferson, I have heard about Johnny Cash of course, who hadn’t?
Anyhow here is a tidbit, he was apparently a janitor before he became famous.

———————–
Here’s an interesting read: Johnny Cash Once Demanded that Kris Kristofferson, who was a janitor at the time for Columbia Records, be allowed to sit in on one of his recording sessions.

And it all started with Kristofferson being banned from Johnny’s recording sessions…Kris in his own words.
Kristofferson: “I almost got fired one time because a couple of songwriters crashed the session, and they were trying to pitch him a gospel album.
And for some reason the woman who was the secretary to the producer blamed me for letting them in there and tried to get me fired.

And so the next night my boss came down and said, “I don’t think you should go to John’s session tonight,” which was heartbreaking for me because I lived for those recording sessions….But I understood it.”
Johnny was not happy to hear that Kris wouldn’t be sitting in on the recording session.

Kristofferson: “I hid down in the vault of the recording studio and was erasing tapes down there or doing some kind of busy work, and John appeared down there in the basement.
He said, “I understand you’re not coming to the session.”
I said “No, I’ve got a lot of work to do down here, I can’t.

He said “Well I just wanted to tell you I’m not gonna record until you come up there.
So, I had to go up there and sit on the floor.

Kristofferson: “And here I was, the janitor, and I’m sitting on the floor and this woman who tried to get me fired was watching me and the whole session. It was the most uncomfortable I’ve ever been in my life.

But I thought it was the measure of the man. He always stood up for the underdog…. And that’s something I’ve tried to live up to. He’s been a good example.”
Kristofferson said this whole experience was an example of who Johnny Cash really was.”

450164542_483901467351595_2430912254485180485_n
KevinM
KevinM
July 10, 2024 1:45 pm

 Arky
July 10, 2024 1:17 pm

Meanwhile, all the actual goods are made in factories, still today, mainly by the same combination of manual labour and clever automation that Ford invented and worked to perfect.

I don’t have much time to watch videos, but when I do, I like to watch industrial processes, how things are made.

It is amazing how much manual labour is still employed in the most sophisticated, automated factories.

KevinM
KevinM
July 10, 2024 1:51 pm

Wrong thread, sorry.

JC
JC
July 10, 2024 1:59 pm

The tethering wasn’t industrialisation per se, it was being drawn into a economic arrangement that would favour the US more than China if no alternative arrangement was available.

Raising one billion Chinese out of poverty but it unequally favoured the US. Chinese GDP was probably the size of NSW before it began the industrialisation push, but as you say, it favoured the US more. Not mutually beneficial but just one sided.

No dissonance showing here at all.

JC
JC
July 10, 2024 2:50 pm

I never argued that the arrangement did not involve mutual benefit. I said that it was one which the US held the whip hand. 

The US had no whip hand and the benefits while being mutual proportionally favoured China because of where they were and compared to now.

JC
JC
July 10, 2024 4:07 pm

Dover, if only you had a time machine able to warn the “regime” at the time.

I recall discussions about China early on and none were of the zero sum type that you describe. The US, or rather , the “regime” believed that a prosperous China embedded in the global security system was a forced for good.

Your problem appears to be that you’re looking back and thinking the knowledge we have now was available at the time.

JC
JC
July 10, 2024 4:14 pm

We (the West) did this to ourselves. The CCP played a better game and our belief in our invincibility and native superiority blinded the West.

With Xi, China truly became antagonistic. Although previous leaders weren’t exactly Thomas Jefferson resurrected, they weren’t nearly as evil as this prick.

Last edited 12 days ago by JC
JC
JC
July 10, 2024 4:42 pm

Not at all. I’m not even describing a zero sum situation. What you fail to register is that nations aren’t obliged to judge a global security system under the leadership of the US must be considered a force for good.

Oh yeah, not following global security systems such as threatening to land grab your neighbor, in this case Taiwan. You really have a warped view of things when you can’t see something wrong here. But, I’d bet two or even three to a dozen that with you all roads lead to Putin love.

You talk about the “regime” in the West as though ossified regimes doesn’t exist in Russia, China, Iran and north Korea. Who are you kidding.

JC
JC
July 10, 2024 4:44 pm

All this means is that China went its own way and openly so.

If going your own way means attempting to take over neighbors and trying to claim an open sea as your own. Sure, we agree.

JC
JC
July 10, 2024 4:46 pm

Not at all. I’m not even describing a zero sum situation. What you fail to register is that nations aren’t obliged to judge a global security system under the leadership of the US must be considered a force for good.

Well, actually the only person doing that is you, but in reverse. Everything the West does is bad, while everything kloptos and dictators do is pretty, pretty good.

John H.
John H.
July 11, 2024 12:08 am

dover0beach

 July 10, 2024 4:00 pm

The US had no whip hand and the benefits while being mutual proportionally favoured China because of where they were and compared to now.

Let’s imagine this were true. Congratulations, US, you played yourself.

That’s a little harsh. We don’t have crystal balls but we must make plans. It’s a quandary.

China is now trying to what the West had been doing for centuries. We can’t blame China for arming up. A South American diplomat was asked by an American ambassador why the USA is despised in Latin America. “We read history.” The USA has problems but it remains dominant and China, despite having x3 the population, is still scared of it. For example, China still hasn’t built a genuine stealth aircraft, the USA already has hundreds and is now building data linked stealth missiles with a range of 1000ks that can be released in large numbers from transport aircraft. China has nothing comparable and importantly China has never fought a modern war.

Arky
July 11, 2024 12:21 am

We’re a difficult people, us Westerners.
Those who have travelled in traditional Eastern places know they are much more polite, compliant and likely to defer to authority.
Whereas we spend much of our time trying to f*** each other over in every conceivable way.
Which is why we have a system designed the way it is.
Is an adversarial system.
It’s a system which rewards those willing to stand up for themselves.
At its best it mediates between competing interests in a fair and reasonable way. At it’s worst it is gamed by arseholes.
You can’t untangle those, it’s inherent to the system.

Arky
July 11, 2024 1:10 am

I’ll admit it seems complicated.
But it really isn’t, it’s like three card monte.
It’s a trick.
The trick:
The East was commie but now they like capitalism. The West was free and democratic but now they seem Marxist and authoritarian.
Or so it seems.
But really, you just have to keep your eye on who is who and what is what.
They don’t hide it.
The people who call themselves communists are communists.
Whether they are the CCP or some KGB colonel or some university professor.
That stuff is obvious. They’re the bad guys. They don’t hide it because they want their followers to know who and what they are. Maybe with a bit of distraction thrown in like “Democratic Republic of whatever” and “here is our human rights charter”. Whatever. Everyone should know what they are. At home or abroad, those jokers aren’t hard to work out. They want the final triumph of the party, the abolition of private property rights and for you to work for free at the pleasure of the state.
If you can’t spot them straight away, you can once you hear what they propose. They are the decedents of the horror show that was 20th century communism: the gulags, the secret police. The disappearing people in the small hours. The murders. The spying on citizens. Forced labour.
The difficult bit comes with the useful idiots.
Those who have been through a corrupt education/ indoctrination system without questioning what they were told. Most of us are guilty of this to some degree. The last forty years, that’s just been in the air we breathe and the water we drink, due to systematic indoctrination and the long March through the institutions. Many of these people now inhabit previously “conservative” parties and institutions.
So that gets confusing. Because you end up with a free and Democratic system which contains a lot of fools mouthing Marxist rhetoric, and because it’s a free system there isn’t anything that can be done about it except present the contra case.
Meanwhile, the Soviet Union has fallen apart and Communist China has a problem: how do you progress the people from feudalism into capitalism so that you can fulfil the Marxist prediction of a utopian post- capitalist society, when your one and only source of industrial expertise has just collapsed? Well, how amusing! You get the capitalists in the West to build it all for you.
It is exquisite! You get the capitalists to build your industrial empire, meanwhile you keep your communist party, flag, anthem and ideology: the capitalists don’t care about that, the only care about making money. You also get to send hundreds of thousands of your children to be educated in top tier Western universities, who, being capitalist, are quite happy to take the money and bend to most of your ideological requirements.
In short: the West is still free, democratic and capitalist. But it is being gamed and ideologically undermined by commies. The commies are still commies and still want to enslave or kill you. But the CCP commies had to industrialise to fast forward their societies through the capitalist phase. They WILL kill off all their local “capitalists” once they have progressed far enough.

Last edited 11 days ago by Arky
JC
JC
July 11, 2024 1:48 pm

If anyone is obsessed by Putin it’s yourself. You are unable to talk about anything with me without at some point bring up Putin. But on the ‘global security system’, never heard of it, and so far as Taiwan is concerned, its status is ambiguous given the history. 

The person who appears obsessed is you, offering up every sad excuse you can think of—that it was the “regime” that made him attack a sovereign country. It’s a coincidence then that every dictator he sucks up to, you appear to support in their confrontation with the West. I’m just calling it as I see it.
 

Taiwan isn’t like Vietnam, it is literally where the opposing national forces fled to as the Chinese Civil War came to its end. As for the South China Seas, when the Taiwanese make the same claim over the same area what can be said.

The one big difference that you refuse to acknowledge is that even if Taiwan makes similar ownership claims, it does not harass shipping going through the South China Sea. China does.

Why even bother putting regime in scare quotes? Just weird unless you buy into the liberal view that the term is pejorative.

It’s not scare quotes, but quotes to show that I’m not adopting this term when referring to the West. I notice you avoided elaborating if you considered that Russia, Iran, China, and North Korea are also run by “regimes.”.
 

JC
JC
July 11, 2024 3:07 pm

Neither the post nor the prior comments were about Putin but you couldn’t help yourself.

China is now a close Russian ally and so it’s not out of context to point out its relevance to your arguments. In any event, what exactly is the big deal as I don’t quite get the opposition? The reason why I brought it up is that you appear to support anyone allied to the Russian regime.

The Chinese doesn’t harass shipping. There are issues between it and other parties with their own disputed claims in the same area.

We’ve been through this before, and it hasn’t been just me who has explained to you that your claim is incorrect. China does harass shipping in an open sea by pretending they own it.

Given I don’t use regime in the pejorative sense why would I have to say anything?

LOL.

Last edited 11 days ago by JC
JC
JC
July 11, 2024 4:19 pm

It was a reference to Putin love. Just admit you couldn’t help yourself.

I kind of find it hard to believe that you find him the good guy in all this.

They’re not stopping cargo ships on the open sea.

They are asking for ID and information as to what they are carrying as cargo. It’s none of their fcking business requesting this info on what (you also describe) as the open sea. You mentioned earlier that even Taiwan makes claims to the South China Sea. Taiwan doesn’t demand ID and cargo information. As I said, we’ve been through this before and it looks like you want to revisit this again, which I believed was a closed case.

Given you’re the one that expresses opposition to the use of the word I think you may be projecting here. Even in this post I refer to the US as either the US or the GAE.

I don’t think I’ve expressed any opposition as it’s your blog and can do what you like. You could also recognize the other regimes. Those I mentioned earlier that you appear to be avoiding.

Last edited 11 days ago by JC
Bruce of Newcastle
Bruce of Newcastle
July 12, 2024 8:38 am

I hadn’t intended to comment on this thread since it’s a messy area. However here’s an article that I’ve just read which is pretty topical.

China: The Helpless Giant (11 Jul)

Most observers translate China’s large economy into the status of global superpower soon to surpass the U.S. in economic and military strength.

That extrapolation has been a chimera for some time. In reality, China’s economy is fragile and weakening by the day. …

China’s population may decline from 1.41 billion to 750 million over the next 50 years. That’s a loss of over 650 million people.

Considering that one definition of GDP is working-age population x productivity, it follows that China’s GDP will suffer a spectacular decline over the remainder of this century. (Note: The total GDP will decline but per capita GDP may be maintained because the population itself is shrinking.)

Finally, China has wasted much of the wealth it did earn during the past 30 years with bad investments in unneeded infrastructure. …

China has one of the highest debt-to-GDP ratios in the world, well over 300%. (Much of this debt is buried at the provincial level or in state-controlled banks rather than sovereign bonds, but the debt/growth dynamic is the same.) This debt overhang will retard Chinese growth independent of the other factors mentioned in this article.

So far Beijing hasn’t found a way to get women to have babies again, so the demographic crisis remains on the cards. The vast amount of debt hidden in the provinces and the malinvestments that are starting to bite, with a number of construction companies failing lately. Add this all up and the edifice does look a bit shaky.

The Beer whisperer
The Beer whisperer
July 12, 2024 10:27 am

China isn’t evil, but it’s run by some of the evilest people that have ever lived. Worse, they are giving our evil bad ideas.

We are facing a boot on the face of humanity forever. China should’ve been allowed to languish in its filth until its own people rose up. Now we are all going to pay for our folly.

JC
JC
July 12, 2024 3:44 pm

I kind of find it hard to believe that you need to take about good guys and bad guys rather than just looking at the situation as it is.

 
Have you read your own comments and thought about what you’re saying? In your universe, the bad guys always appear to be in the West.
 
 All I would conclude from that difference is that Taiwan doesn’t take their

claim seriously, doesn’t want to anger the US, and/ or simple lacks the means to pursue that claim materially.

 
What a silly conclusion. Taiwan can make claims as much as it likes, but it’s never attempted to curtail the use of the waterway like China has.
 

Then why are we discussing the term ‘regime’?

 

I’m confused, if you use it then why can’t others.
 Lastly. I’m amused by how you’ve said looking back, that if you had your time again, you’d be against the Iraq invasion. How does that square with your support of the Russian invasion and the potential invasion of Taiwan, which you’ve implied you also support, seeing as you’ve said in the past that Taiwan belongs to China? This is an intellectual mess, Dover. It’s a quagmire.

Last edited 10 days ago by JC
JC
JC
July 13, 2024 12:01 pm

I’ve not only read them, I’ve written them. Putting that aside, why are you still talking about good guys and bad guys?

 
I’m highlighting the fact that there is good and evil in the world, and you appear to have chosen to side with some pretty awful people. Dreadful, dodgy human beings. If a time machine were available, they’d make the case for post birth abortion in adulthood.
 

It’s actually a sensible conclusion.

It’s a patently silly, delusional conclusion. Taiwan can make any silly claim it wants. The problem isn’t the claim per se. It’s about actions taken to support the claim, which is something you avoid discussing.
 

 Moreover, I haven’t expressed support for any potential invasion of Taiwan.

 

Well, you’ve been suggesting Taiwan belongs to China. What other conclusion can be drawn from this sinister view?
 

What I’ve expressed is an understanding of the mainland Chinese’s position re Taiwan, given the history. Similar position also re Russia and Ukraine, the only difference between them is that the passage of events has inclined me to the Russian position increasingly.

 
Taiwan also makes the claim that it’s the one true government of China, so equally, Taiwan has a point—even a more legitimate one, seeing that a Taiwanese takeover of the Chinese government could mean people would likely have the right to vote and be included in the process of choosing their leadership. Certainly more likely than now.
 
The Iraq invasion = now considered really bad.
The Russian invasion = really good and deserved.
A potential Chinese invasion of Taiwan = considered really good.
Restricting the use of a vital waterway is considered = really good, and the Chinese have a point.
As I said, this is an intellectual mess of quagmire proportions.

Then why are we discussing the term ‘regime’?

 
Would you feel better if we used the term ’empire’?

And what of your ‘inconsistency’ being pro-invasion re Iraq but anti-invasion re Ukraine? Quagmire?

Except, I haven’t that at all.

Arky
July 13, 2024 12:53 pm

No, a Chinese invasion of Taiwan would also be a calamity

It would be a massacre on a scale not seen since WW2.
Taiwan consists of highly urbanised areas inside heavily vegetated mountainous regions. Deep valleys of dense jungle.
If the US cannot break a Chinese siege, 24 million humans trapped in a cauldron, under bombardment.
The civilian death toll would be enormous, and if the result was a successful invasion, that death toll would probably go untold.
We have had a preview of what the communist bloc does, how it conducts war. We see the bombed out remains of Ukraine’s towns and cities. Utter devastation.
After the US marines cleared Fallujah of insurgents the city was largely intact. Civilians were evacuated ahead of operations. Intelligence efforts were made to identify insurgent strong points and reduce civilian casualties. Western militaries are painfully aware that outcries over civilian deaths can stop operations. The communist bloc does not wage war that way. In the Korean War The Chinese used refugees as human shields.

JC
JC
July 13, 2024 1:00 pm

Where did you get this GAE term from anyway? Was it a Russian or Chinese bot?
 
 

And the GAE has some pretty awful people in it too, especially within the regime.

 
Is the Putin regime awful? Iran’s or China’s CCP? How about North Korea? For the past few years, you’ve been harshly critical of the West, but not once have I ever seen you critical of any of these thugcracies. You’re actually lucky you reside in the West, because if you tried to set up a blog like this critical of those earthly paradises, you’d be deadsky along with every other commenter on here.
 

No, its imminently sensible. But, look, your argument now is just strange. You’re now arguing, by implication, that you have no problem with the Chinese claim re the South China Sea, you only have a problem with its actions that give effect to that claim. Or are you only saying this because you are tendentiously trying to defend Taiwan.

Again, you try to avoid the difference between cheap talk and real action. There are real actions that the CCP wants to dominate the South China Sea and continually tries to take, which you patently deny.
 

No, I said there was a history between the two forces that fought for control of China which included both the mainland China and the island of Taiwan which has yet to be fully resolved.

Actually, yes, you made the claim in an earlier exchange that Taiwan is part of China, and by implication, the CCP has a right to make the claim. As far as the free world is concerned, it is resolved.
 

I have no problem with either. It was you repeatedly using regime in scare quotes above, not me. Regime is a perfectly good word to describe a system of power that includes more than just the government of the day, while empire is a perfectly good word to describe a nation that dominates other nations. Again, I have no problem with either word. As you know, this was never about how I felt about these words.

 

Sure.

JC
JC
July 13, 2024 3:44 pm

So what you’re saying is ROC engage in cheap talk and the PRC in real action. OK.

The first time I’ve ever read that Taiwan has made claims on the South China Sea, you mentioned it. No one has ever taken it for real. Unlike China, they have never acted on it by attempting to claim that an important sea passage is theirs with real intent.
 

 Yes, the island of Taiwan is historically a part of China, so its understandable given the history of the previous Civil War that both the ROC and the PRC made reciprocal claims against the other as putative legitimate heirs to territories previously under the control of China. What the ‘free world’ thinks here is tangential.

Tangential, in your opinion. Perhaps you should go ask the Taiwanese, and while you’re in the vicinity, taking a poll, you should also ask the Hong Kong Chinese how things are working out under the jackboot of the CCP. Oh, forget the last part, as you’d be arrested.
 

Sure.

I know. The evidence is simply the conversation above.

 

Show where.
 
I see you’ve avoided making any negative comments about the newly formed axis. You’re far down that hole; you really need an intervention.

BobtheBoozer
BobtheBoozer
July 14, 2024 9:42 am

Dover Beach:

The Chinese doesn’t harass shipping. There are issues between it and other parties with their own disputed claims in the same area.

Then what would you describe the Phillipines resupply runs to one of their islands being attacked by Chinese vessels as? Especially an area where “ the Hague ruled in favor of the Philippines, concluding that China has no legal basis to claim historic rights to the bulk of the South China Sea.”

Roger
Roger
July 14, 2024 6:58 pm

Global container traffic through the South China Sea is very high and yet I can’t recall a single instance in which their ‘freedom of navigation’ has been diminished.

That’s a red herring.

None of the nations involved – China, Vietnam, Philippines, Taiwan – has a right to invoke the 12 nautical mile rule on foreign warships transiting through the region because it is not their territorial sea. In this instance, the US is perfectly within its rights acc. to international maritime law to conduct freedom of navigation operations.

JC
JC
July 14, 2024 7:42 pm

I’m not surprised that was the first time. Why would regime media actually inform their readers of facts that complicate their anti-China narrative?

No one takes their claim seriously and more importantly no one believes for a second they would act on it. China is claiming 90% of the South China Sea, which also includes water in between islands belonging to archipelago countries.

‘Asking the Taiwanese’ doesn’t actually defend the free world isn’t tangential claim. Also, plenty of expats living in HK. They seem to be having no problem. This jackboot claim is a little thin.

The right to self determination isn’t important to you. Nice to see who you’re running with these days. “Plenty of expats” doesn’t mean both expats and locals aren’t leaving permanently. They are. Hong Kong is dead, but that obviously doesn’t matter to you because China is Russia’s new ally and that’s all that counts.

You started mentioning “regime” even though I’d never mentioned it. Then I tell you I have no problem with the term or ’empire’ and you say ‘Sure’. Who are you kidding here? 

Excuse me, but if you refer to someone’s comments as whiny, because I disagree with you, I’ll use any word in quotes that I think is appropriate, so stop whining about the use of “regime”.

Why must I make negative comments against X simply to please you?

It’s impossible for you, isn’t it.

JC
JC
July 14, 2024 8:09 pm

LOL “regime” media.

On June 10, FactWire announced that it was shutting down with immediate effect, becoming the tenth Hong Kong news organization to close in less than 12 months. FactWire had used an innovative crowdfunding model to produce Chinese-language investigative journalism, exemplifying the type of award-winning independent media that once flourished in the territory. But just as many feared when Beijing imposed the National Security Law (NSL) on June 30, 2020, the landscape for free expression in Hong Kong is now increasingly desolate.

Under the NSL, Hong Kong’s total score in Freedom in the World, Freedom House’s annual report on political rights and civil liberties, has dropped by 12 points, from 55 to 43, on a scale of 0 to 100. The score declined by nine points in 2021 alone, marking the year’s the third-worst decline globally after Myanmar and Afghanistan, which experienced a military coup and conquest by the Taliban, respectively. This is especially significant given that most of the countries and territories with deteriorating freedoms only see their scores decline a point or two in any given year.

The security law has served as a crucial tool in Beijing’s devastating authoritarian takeover of Hong Kong, enabling the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) to bring a free and vibrant society to heel.

The following are among the five most significant changes to freedom of expression under the NSL:

1. Demolition of Independent Media

2.journalists Added to a Growing List of Political Prisoners

3. Growth of Mainland-Style State Media

4. Internet Censorship and Surveillance

5. Attempted Erasure of Tiananmen Collective Memory

More to Come

https://thediplomat.com/2022/06/hong-kong-is-unrecognizable-after-2-years-under-the-national-security-law/

JC
JC
July 14, 2024 8:45 pm

It’s not a red herring if the claim is that they intend to impending international shipping.

This is dissonance of huge scale. China sets up bases and creates artificial island through the waterway, which in turn forces commercial shipping to avoid because of the 12K barrier.

Also

China has implemented measures that effectively require vessels to report their presence and cargo information when traversing the South China Sea. This move has increased tensions in the region, with implications for international navigation and trade. Ships passing through are expected to provide information about their voyage to Chinese authorities, which Beijing argues is necessary for maintaining safety and order

But no, China doesn’t harass commercial shipping. Not one bit.

JC
JC
July 14, 2024 9:16 pm

You only just heard of it so it’s hard to take this assertion seriously.

Nope. It’s because they have never acted on it, as I’ve said several times, which you avoid because it’s the right assessment.

You’re just emoting now, JC.

You made the false claim everything is fine and dandy in HK, when it’s anything but and people, who can, are leaving.

You’ve but at me this whole post, JC. Your first comment was that I need an ‘intervention’, and it did stop there, and your shitty because at some stage I called you whiny? Really?

I find you calling me whiny funny. You’re the one actually whining about “regime”, which I will continue to use because it so relatively preposterous with you’re support of Russia and its allies.

Yes, I’m not going to sit or roll over at command.

Sounds emotive and kind of whiny.
How’s that Chinese “regime” media working out for you?

JC
JC
July 14, 2024 9:44 pm

The others do precisely the same thing.

LOL. Only China is attempting to control the S China Sea. I get it, like Iran and NK, allied to Wussia, China can do nothing wrong.

No I haven’t, JC. You are pretending people can’t look upthread and see you using it in scare quotes when it had not even been mentioned. This switcheroo your trying on is ludicrous.

I hope they look upthread and they”ll find you whining about something as unimportant as placing quotes around the word regime.

But look where this cul de sac has taken you. You’re now supporting the CCP’s attempt to take over the S China Sea, and the only regime media that exists is in the West.

JC
JC
July 14, 2024 10:39 pm

Stop this nonsense Dover. We’ve been through this before. Others aren’t creating islands to take over and militarize 90% of the waterway. They’re now doing it in reaction to China’s action. And yes, we know China wasn’t the first to create an artificial island. But that omits the fact that China is now doing it to claim almost all the waterway including waters in between islands belonging to other countries.

And this:

That’s a red herring.

It’s not a red herring if the claim is that they intend to impending international shipping.

You’ve claimed China hasn’t impeded commercial shipping. Then there’s this.

China has implemented measures that effectively require vessels to report their presence and cargo information when traversing the South China Sea. This move has increased tensions in the region, with implications for international navigation and trade. Ships passing through are expected to provide information about their voyage to Chinese authorities, which Beijing argues is necessary for maintaining safety and order

It’s not just naval shipping.

Dare I say it.

Really, there’s no need.

Look, I acknowledge how you’ve really put in a great effort to defend the CCP’s actions and done so tooth and nail, but you have a dreadful client here and it would be far better if you went for s plea bargain.

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