New Catallaxy

Potential victims need cops to take out the bad guys

Unfailingly, whenever police act violently, as in Memphis, there are calls for legislative reform by the Democrats in the US. This usually consist of measures to rein in police, banning choke holds and the like, increasing the threshold for the use of force, and making individual cops open to being personally sued for perceived misconduct. The proposed George Floyd Justice in Policing Act is the current legislative measure du jour.

In the US, of course, race complicates an already complicated issue. Race hustler Al Sharpton, faced with the unpalatable fact that all of the cops indicted for beating Tyre Nichols were black, claimed that it would not have happened if Nichols had been white. Sad to say, he may be right; for once. Blacks commit a grossly disproportionate amount of violent crime. Why then wouldn’t police of any colour be wary and prejudiced in their outlook? It’s unfortunate. People should be dealt with as individuals, equally and civilly. But we don’t live in a perfect world. And we, law abiding citizens, depend on police to protect us.

As Det. Frank Keller (Al Pacino) says to his love interest Helen Kruger (Ellen Barkin) in the movie Sea of Love: “Come the wet ass hour, I’m everybody’s daddy!” 

So what to do? We want the bad guys off the street. We don’t want to hamstring the police. We don’t want violent police.

When young, aged about eighteen, waiting in the early hours for a train on a section of deserted platform at Euston Station in London, I saw two policemen beat up a man who had been sleeping on a bench seat. I saw no provocation. Interfering would have been foolhardy; but, in fact, it didn’t cross my mind at the time. I sat up straight and checked that I didn’t look dishevelled.

Legislated rules of conduct are no answer. The only partial answer is to get the right people at the top; to create a culture of restraint and respect. And to harden recruitment. Police forces attract thugs and those of intemperate disposition. If they are not weeded out at the start, there’s half a chance they’ll run amok at some stage, whatever are the rules.

Peter Smith

33 responses to “Potential victims need cops to take out the bad guys”

  1. flyingduk Avatar
    flyingduk

    Legislated rules of conduct are no answer. The only partial answer is to get the right people at the top; to create a culture of restraint and respect.

    Correct, it does not matter well crafted the ruleset is, if it is either selectively enforced or ignored, it is insufficient (Exhibit A, the US constitution and the last 100 years, Exhibit B, the Australian Constitution and the last 3 years.

    Police forces attract thugs and those of intemperate disposition. If they are not weeded out at the start, there’s half a chance they’ll run amok at some stage, whatever are the rules.

    Which is EXACTLY WHY they used the last 3 years to weed out the ‘good cops’, leaving the force now full of ‘bad cops’ who don’t mind ‘following orders’ and cracking a few grandmas heads for fun if the government of the day sanctions it.

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  2. Christine Avatar
    Christine

    Harden recruitment:
    The old standards were disgarded many decades ago, considered outdated. And there was a drive to boost numbers.
    Restraint and respect:
    A fair number of officers leave the force/service around their forties, fearing that restraint might become impossible to maintain, considering the regular exposure to individuals who don’t know what respect is.

    The placement of women at the top has been a failure.

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  3. Mother Lode Avatar
    Mother Lode

    Race hustler Al Sharpton, faced with the unpalatable fact that all of the cops indicted for beating Tyre Nichols were black

    I suppose he is, in a roundabout way, saying what I expected: That the black cops had been become effectively ‘white’ by accepting white police culture and thinking.

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  4. Christine Avatar
    Christine

    Please excuse that ‘disgarded’. ggrrrr

  5. Mother Lode Avatar
    Mother Lode

    My impression was that, when all the dust was settled and smoke cleared, the hold used by the police officer in the George Floyd was entirely defensible. It had killed no one previously and only did so under that most incredible alignment of the stars where it was applied to a guy, one who had swallowed his stash of fentanyl, and who had done so not in the policeman’s presence (so he did not know).

    The documented effects of ingesting the drug explained all his medical complications and while he protested he could not breathe it is also true that this is a common device to get the police to relax their hold and make escape possible.

    Whether therefore the police officer ought to have been able to tell that Floyd was in legitimate distress I do not know. Sadly the final decision of the court cannot count as arguing that the police officer was guilty. The trial was a circus. And the politicians in charge far far to like Pilate who would weigh the very life of an innocent man against a restive mob, and bow to the mob.

    Except Pilate had the good conscience to dislike what he did even as he did it for mere pragmatic reasons that would have offended the philosophical ideals of his birth, upbringing, and culture. He at least got some small part of his own back when he rejoined (being challenged for describing Jesus in an inscription on the cross as ‘King of the Jews’ instead of ‘Called Himself King of the Jews’) “What I have written, I have written.”

    Most pollies these days are more of the ‘wash my hands of’ type.

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  6. Ed Case Avatar
    Ed Case

    The Cops were Affirmative Action hires, in other words, being Black was their only qualification.
    That said, any interaction with Police can turn deadly very quickly.

    2
  7. Bruce of Newcastle Avatar
    Bruce of Newcastle

    Unfortunately trust in the police has gone, ever since they took to arresting old ladies for not wearing masks, and families for picnicking in a park.

    All totalitarian states need Stasi. Five black police brutalizing a black perp seems to be in character with the Left’s mode of operation.

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  8. 2dogs Avatar
    2dogs

    What Republicans need to do here is amend the legislation so that whatever elected official is in charge of the relevant police force is vicariously liable for any misconduct of the police under their command, along with their party.

    This is almost invariably a Democrat (Jacob Frey in the George Floyd case).

    3
  9. Tintarella di Luna Avatar
    Tintarella di Luna

    Police forces attract thugs and those of intemperate disposition. If they are not weeded out at the start, there’s half a chance they’ll run amok at some stage, whatever are the rules.

    thugs and those of intemperate disposition

    . For the VicPol that appears to be a pre-requisite for admission.

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  10. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare Avatar
    Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    I’ve had a few interactions years ago with NSW police to assist with family members gone astray, as teenage tearaways, or needing a welfare check, and they have always been positive encounters, with police being kindly as needed, and helpful. There are many good ones although none should be expected to be social workers. In policing leadership counts. During Covid we saw some appalling leadership and resultant police brutality in the name of ‘protecting the community’. This is Stasi stuff, and has no place in a democracy. Charges against some of the worst of it should have been laid. A Royal Commission is still required, for the behaviour should have been stopped at the top before it started. Now the damage is done and a lot of trust has been eroded.

    In America, the racial tinder box that has been created by Critical Race Theory and Black Lives Matter injects a whole new dimension into the complexities of policing and of attracting good recruits to it.

    3
  11. Damon Avatar
    Damon

    I thought that the defendant in the George Floyd case should have appealed, and that it should have had a good chance of success, except for the likely fury of the mob. There are many examples where fear of mob violence has had an impact on the proper administration of justice.

    3
  12. Bazinga Avatar
    Bazinga

    Who watches the Watchmen

  13. Perfidious Albino Avatar
    Perfidious Albino

    I’m still convinced I saw the same silver haired late middle aged senior uniformed cop in maybe half of the vision of VicPol beating on the populace during the lockdown protests

    2
  14. Bruce in WA Avatar
    Bruce in WA

    We had a letter in the local rag a few days back that stated, categorically, that there was a proved link between firearm ownership and increased suicide (which is contrary to every piece of research I’ve done). He went to to propose that WA police be immediately disarmed to (a) stop them shooting people, and (b) stop them suiciding. He proposed a force like “the Met”, where the “bobbies” would be unarmed, but could call up a specialist trained armed squad if needed.

    Gosh that would work well against some hyped-up meth-head in Northbridge running at you with scissors/knife/machete/broken beer bottle.

    “Hang on, mate, just gotta make a radio call …”

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  15. rickw Avatar
    rickw

    We want the bad guys off the street. We don’t want to hamstring the police. We don’t want violent police.

    I think there are several keys to making this work as well as it can in an imperfect world.

    Policing must be focused on genuine criminality. If you also give police the option of policing on administrative type issues, they’ll go that route, it’s easiest. As a result of this in Australia, we have police that are “tough” on ordinary citizens when they have no right or need to be, and soft on genuine criminals. There is a vast amount of policing that is administrative, it must be stopped.

    Police must realise that they are in a partnership with the community. Administrative policing undermines that approach. There are also plenty of laws and actions by prosecutors that emphasise and reinforce anything but a partnership. Try holding up a Pedo that’s trying to break into your kids bedroom with an unloaded .22 and you’ll find out exactly what I mean. They absolutely threw the book at the father in Albury that did this, the reality is that he did the police and the community a massive favour at his own risk. Police might think they get away with shit like this, but they don’t. When stories like this break, 90% of the population says “f’ck you” to police. In a sane world, a reasonable and measured community response would have been to raze Albury police station and fire every idiot policeman and prosecutor that went within a mile of this mess.

    These two factors drive the recruitment of police in exactly the wrong direction. Fundamentally you end up with bullies. Police that are brave enough to throw the book at the father with an unloaded .22, but not brave enough, or dedicated enough to hunt down for themselves the Pedo that he’d just apprehended.

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  16. MatrixTransform Avatar
    MatrixTransform

    Albino, I believe you’re correct.

    Ballarat, collingwood, that bloke sure got around. Film crew could barely keep up.

    what a joke. They think we’re that stupid

    …and apparently we are

    3
  17. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    Much of US violent aggression is black on black, so why the expectation that a uniform should moderate it rather than usually excuse it.

    3
  18. sfw Avatar
    sfw

    Good source in vicpol tells me that resignations are at an all time high. Applications at an all time low. The fools at the top have no idea how to fix things. They created this situation but lay the blame everywhere except on themselves. Solution abandon virtually all standards and ask those they knocked back to reapply. He’s in his early 30s and is looking for other jobs so are many like him. He pointed out that the results of their policies and recruiting won’t be on IOUs for around 4 years. By then those responsible will have retired ot gone on to other things.
    No quick fix for this mess.

    3
  19. Mother Lode Avatar
    Mother Lode

    Much of US violent aggression is black on black, so why the expectation that a uniform should moderate it rather than usually excuse it.

    Because it is not genetic, but cultural (well, subcultural). The violence is overwhelmingly to be found within and emanating from inner urban ghetto rap culture. Not everyone within the ghetto is like that, and a lot of violence found elsewhere is from people copying the subculture.

    The issues in the subculture are well known – an hypertrophied self-interestedness, absorption in the moment (within which timescale drugs and promiscuity have no downside), an ingrained hatred of all authority (because it would override self-interest), an idiotic belief that your weapons can hurt others but theirs won’t get you, excessive braggadocio and a hair-trigger temper – and it goes on.

    You only need to look at some of the less salubrious, welfare ridden areas of major cities in Australia – mostly white – where multigenerational unemployment has bred a violent, backward, improvident, criminal underclass steeped in (borrowing from Churchill) a ‘degraded sensualism’ of drugs and alcohol. Notably the family unit has collapsed there as well, with over-inked slatterns dressed by Target and dragging along 5 kids to 6 fathers, and unshaved men with leather skin stinking of cheap grog who spend most of they day in a stupor but summoning up enough energy at night to knock over shops or rob cars to augment their already spent dole.

    Culture.

    5
  20. Chris Avatar
    Chris

    Lots of over-generalisations to work with.
    Time for a white pill.
    Lots of decent people in VICPOL, as other Forces/Services including WAPOL.
    What we see on youtube or TV is curated to enrage.
    Management actions that enrage, like charging the father defending family from pedo, are perhaps based on incomplete information to the public.
    Large levels of resignations or turnover may be like post vax cancers – partly due to people delaying stuff that was already in train, due to lockdowns or expected changes in management regime.
    Even out in the suburbs there are decent people, far more of them than f-wits.
    Chick coppers under four feet tall can maybe do paperwork and social work really well, and management reward that because its 90% of their work

    1
  21. Chris Avatar
    Chris

    Greetings, fellow ‘potential victims’.

  22. Robert Sewell Avatar
    Robert Sewell

    Chris:

    Lots of decent people in VICPOL, as other Forces/Services including WAPOL.

    Name them.

    3
  23. Robert Sewell Avatar
    Robert Sewell

    Todays Liberty Quote:
    What would things been like [in Russia] if during periods of mass arrests people had not simply sat there, paling with terror at every bang on the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people?

    — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  24. Colonel Crispin Berka Avatar
    Colonel Crispin Berka

    Peter Smith declared:

    And we, law abiding citizens, depend on police to protect us.

    This nonsensical sentence was not central to Peter’s argument and he reaches a conclusion I agree with. Just needing to nitpick this one because it is fundamental.

    In reality we depend on each other’s judgement to not carry out wrongful actions, some of which are illegal. The police show up after the fact, if you’re lucky, to catch the crook. That is a useful disincentive to crime, but it is not protecting us from crime. We protect each other from crimes by not committing them.

    2
  25. HT Avatar
    HT

    Chris says:
    January 31, 2023 at 11:31 am
    Lots of over-generalisations to work with.
    Time for a white pill.
    Lots of decent people in VICPOL, as other Forces/Services including WAPOL.
    What we see on youtube or TV is curated to enrage.

    …

    I agree, however that doesn’t balance the ledger for me. I now have a distinct distrust and feel nothing but utter contempt for VICPOL. This from someone who was a soldier for 20 years and worked on the periphery of law enforcement (intel) for another 20+ years.

    Irrational? Maybe. But until VICPOL is flushed out my opinion, and attitude won’t change. Pretty much the same for Victorian judiciary for that matter after Pell, Lawyer X etc.

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  26. Knuckle Dragger Avatar
    Knuckle Dragger

    rickw at 11.59:

    100%. Outstanding.

  27. Eyrie Avatar
    Eyrie

    Much of US violent aggression is black on black, so why the expectation that a uniform should moderate it rather than usually excuse it.

    Maybe the 5 black cops were really, really annoyed that yet another dumb black was making all blacks look bad?

    2
  28. Burnt Stump Avatar
    Burnt Stump

    Bear in mind that it is emotionally and physically draining for a decent and capable cop to spend a shift with a bogan cop. Or an incompetent diversity hire. I know from experience that this dramatically shortens the career of good cops.

    2
  29. flyingduk Avatar
    flyingduk

    I agree, however that doesn’t balance the ledger for me. I now have a distinct distrust and feel nothing but utter contempt for VICPOL. This from someone who was a soldier for 20 years and worked on the periphery of law enforcement (intel) for another 20+ years.

    Same here – I was an Emergency worker for 30 years (paramedic, volunteer fireman, flying doctor and military reservist. Yet when the COVID madness kicked off it mattered nought. When I spoke out against mandates and lockdowns, I had SAPOL visit me at home (sent by my MP, the SA Attorney General) to tell me I better pull my head in . I didnt, I went to Canberra (along with hundreds of thousands of others) to protest the mandated and got set up by the AFP, arrested on BS traffic charges, jailed for a week and then put through a criminal trial. At that trial, they destroyed the evidence of my innocence (their body camera vision) and fabricated evidence of my guilt (the made up eyewitness testimony of 3 AFP Officers). I was only found not guilty because I had my own vision of the incident proving my account, not theirs, was the correct one.

    Well done SAPOL and the AFP – you turned a ‘comrade in arms’ into a lifelong, bitter enemy who will NEVER help you again, not in any way, not at all, never. I hope you realise your treatment of me and thousands of other decent citizens has made your jobs harder and more dangerous FOREVER.

    Never forget, never forgive.

    5
  30. HT Avatar
    HT

    flyingduk says:
    January 31, 2023 at 9:22 pm

    I think that for those of us especially “that served” (I hate that expression but want to keep it short), that the response of those still serving was an absolute betrayal of core values. It was like being cheated on by a beloved partner of long standing, or an abuser saying “sorry, but I love you so much”, as they deliver yet another right hook.

    For me, long story short and without hyperbolic projection, they nearly killed me by shutting the hospitals down.

    Like you, I will never forget nor forgive the bastards.

    1
  31. flyingduk Avatar
    flyingduk

    I think that for those of us especially “that served” (I hate that expression but want to keep it short), that the response of those still serving was an absolute betrayal of core values

    I was a ‘high value’ military reservist for over 20 years (specialist trauma Dr). I held up my hand to deploy to just about every shit hole the ADF sent troops to, including multiple trips to Timor, Iraq and Afghanistan – all up, the best part of 2 years overseas in uniform, much of it working under rocket and mortar fire. Yet when the government went to war on the people at home, it mattered not. When I found out that 3 previously fit soldiers at Edinburgh had come down with myocarditis after their mandatory vax, I spoke out about it. In response, my CO told me to remain silent. I said I could not, and offered my resignation (as a Senior O5). It was accepted immediately – they cancelled my base access by return email.

    I would have been resigning anyway – its fine for the ADF to hand out water bottles at bushfires, or send their engineers to clean up after floods, but it is NOT OK for them to be deployed ‘in combat’ AGAINST the people – which is exactly what the ADF partnering with police to enforce border checks or home quarantine equated to.

    It is NEVER ACCEPTABLE to deploy the ADF against the people and the CDF should have thrown his rank on the table (as I did) when he was ordered to.

    1
  32. Chris Avatar
    Chris

    duk, you have quite a war story there.
    You understood more deeply what was wrong than the mainstream who adopted the ’emergency requires we do what told’ mentality. This mentality applied to everyone in the PS, Government and media and hence most of the community.
    How do we get from this ‘divide and exclude’ mentality to a ‘debrief, understand and improve’ mentality across those responsible people who will run things next time?

  33. flyingduk Avatar
    flyingduk

    How do we get from this ‘divide and exclude’ mentality to a ‘debrief, understand and improve’ mentality across those responsible people who will run things next time?

    I would start by ‘Admiral Byng-ing’ quite a few of the senior leadership, across the board, Politicians, Police, Military, Health Bureaucrats etc.

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