You may recall Hillary Clinton getting into trouble in the run up to the 2016 election in the United States for referring to an unborn baby as, err, well, an unborn baby. A complete no-no for the Dems who need to consider an unborn baby to be a non-human, a fetus, so that it can be killed by being torn to pieces with good conscience.
Joe Biden has just gone further than Clinton by using the word “child” in context of abortion. I don’t think the Dems will fuss a great deal. He’s clearly beyond rationale thinking and will get a pass. I think he should get a pass. We make allowances for those in their dotage with muddled minds. It’s just that they’re not usually presidents.
Supposing that the leaked Supreme Court majority decision on abortion is genuine, which it seems to be. Then the limits or otherwise on abortion will go back to the individual states to determine. Or, the US Congress could legislate and see whether it survives challenge.
Having abortion rights being determined by legislation, federal or state, is clearly better than the Supreme Court, any court, inventing rights out of thin air; the current state of affairs. But it won’t at all heal the divide in the United States. The debate is not so divisive here because, unlike in America, few people believe in God. Human life is the product of evolution as are cockroaches; therefore, human life is much more dispensable here; provided, that is, we don’t have to actually see the awful deeds.
In America the division is stark.
On one side, human life, made by God, is precious whether it’s at its beginning or at its end.
On the other side, what I prefer to call the dark side, there is no human life until it emerges from a birthing- parent’s womb; a menstruating-person’s womb. The claim, which temporarily and tellingly abandons the language of woke, is that a “woman” has the right to decide what to do with her own body. Here’s Kamala Harris putting the case, stridently. It’s always put stridently to disguise its weakness.
The difficulty is that another body is involved long before he or she emerges from the womb. The unborn baby’s body. It never gets a mention. It doesn’t get a mention because it has to be ignored. “It is a woman’s right to kill the unborn baby inside her at any time she chooses,” isn’t a very sellable proposition. Yet, it is the truth of the pro-abortion position.
As we know, truth and the Left seldom coincide. An empire of lies defines the Left. Denying human life in the womb is just another one of those lies.
Now you don’t have to have an absolute view about abortion. Circumstances can alter cases. But how can you debate the matter with those who refuse to acknowledge that abortion takes away a human life. The truth is, you can’t. And they can’t. Their position is untenable. Ergo, they shout shrilly.
Destroy the empire of lies
I think Biden will sit this one out, and should be allowed to.
However, and this is my wild outsider prediction: the Lizard People will foment unrest on this issue to the degree that Kamala Harris will be pushed from the vice-presidency by November, and the hands of a suitable extreme anti-abortion domestic terrorist.
Ronald Reagan said it best:
“I’ve noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born.”
I notice the people who are most in favour of abortion are not so keen about voluntary euthanasia.
Thank you Peter, very well put.
We are all a ‘clump of cells’- and in Biden’s case desiccated cells. This issue is one of frantic importance to the left, it brings out the very worst in them. They really don’t want those (predominately minority) babies surviving. Awful.
Nope. I do not accept that abortionists / leftists believe the unborn foetus to not yet be a baby or a human being or a child when they are having it aborted, since this allows them far too much leeway to claim that every other evil they commit is not intended to be evil (= no guilty mind).
I know plenty of pro-abortion types, and all of them reckon that if a pregnant woman is killed in a car crash, or by a stray bullet, or whatever…..”a woman and her unborn child” have died / been killed. Likewise leftists are nearly unanimous in seeing miscarriages as involving dead babies or children. In the case of murder / negligence/ reckless killings etc they have no trouble counting the woman (the “mother”!) and the foetus / foetuses as multiple deaths. Unwanted foetal deaths are tragedies!
I suppose what I’m saying is that, for leftists, unwanted abortions / terminations are kids dying, but wanted ones are “something else” (murders they cannot face?).
Ya wanna have a leftist omelette: ya gotta break some eggs.
I notice the people who are most in favour of abortion are not so keen about voluntary euthanasia.
They’re also unanimously against the Death Penalty.
The most important thing for a Baby is to be wanted, Legislation can’t make that happen, and, like it or not, an aborted baby wasn’t wanted.
Yeah, i know, someone will scream Adopted Parents.
That was tried, in many instances it didn’t work out and the adoptee became a burden on Society.
The most important thing for a Baby is to be wanted
1. God wants all babies.
2.I don’t know if babies rank being wanted above not being sliced and diced … I’d like to see some serious polling data on that.
Wolfman Oz mentions above: Ronald Reagan said it best:
“I’ve noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born.”
Being a shite stirrer I’ll get into a discussion about abortion and take the side of anti-abortion. I’ll let someone rabbit on (pardon the pun) long enough to pull the noose and say “sadly your parents and those of other pro-abortionists didn’t think the same”. It usually takes them a while to work out what it means, but they get there in the end.
Hang on… reading that again I think there was a slur against cockroaches!
Hey, just lay off the ‘roaches, man. They’re just trying to make a living like everyone else.
Without inviting an argument on contraception, there has never been a time when it was easier to avoid an unwanted pregnancy than the present. Abortion has become birth control. Any society that goes down that path has a death wish.
Well said Peter.
Without inviting an argument on contraception, there has never been a time when it was easier to avoid an unwanted pregnancy than the present.
That’s tripe.
The Pill has serious Side Effects, all the other contraceptives are crap too.
The facts are:
In Americas, following Roe vs Wade, conceptions went up sharply, births declined by a sixth.
Whether that was caused by R v W or there were other causes is unclear.
The bottom line is:
people have Agency, they voted with their feet for Abortion.
Without inviting an argument on contraception, there has never been a time when it was easier to avoid an unwanted pregnancy than the present.
Even if that’s true, so what?
It’s not an argument against Abortion.
Abortion has become birth control.
Well, yeah, that’s the general idea..
Any society that goes down that path has a death wish.
Again, let’s say Abortion were successfully outlawed, all conceptions result in Births, America has 60 million+ unwanted people that it doesn’t have now, can you see any social problems arising from that?
I was listening to the BBC the other night on this issue, and they interviewed a female professor/lecturer(??) from a U.S. university. They asked if the anti-abortion movement was gaining momentum and why.
The Uni-lady responded that she didn’t think it was the protests that had changed minds, but just the fact that with modern ultra-sound images, so many people now know what a baby-in-the-womb looks like and don’t buy the ‘clump of cells’ line so readily. Indeed, many parents proudly stick their ‘first photos’ of baby on the fridge.
The ‘sexual revolution’ is a complete and utter failure, and like so many other evils, it is always the most vulnerable who suffer most.
Ed Casesays:
May 6, 2022 at 10:41 am
????
Open boarders!
I think you may find that most Americans consider abortion one of the many birth control options, it certainly is here in Australia.
didn’t people screech at Tony Abbot, “keep your rosaries off my ovaries”?
in Australia it is considered a woman’s choice, well, more than considered to be honest
the biggest problem I see with all this in the USA is the left’s reliance on an unelected judiciary to enact laws rather than doing the hard work to make legislation that should be the province of the democratically elected government
roe vs. wade was always fragile and was refereed to by the US left every time conservatives got a chance to put a judge onto their supreme court
they knew it was fragile, but still wouldn’t do the hard yards, they always threatened violence if anyone tried to change it
the US system is a mess, and there are some who would see our system become the same, with a bill of rights that would do exactly the same thing, put laws into the hands of the unelected judiciary instead of the people’s representatives
I’ll redirect you to my first sentence, Ed, and ask you to exercise your powers of comprehension.
I particularly don’t want to go down that path with you.
Have a nice day!
This report from a decade ago shows that many pro-choice scholars and journalists thoght Roe vs Wade had weak or no support in the constitution. Ruth Bader Ginsburg knew it rested on a questionable interpretation –
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/honest-pro-choicers-admit-roe-v-wade-was-a-horrible-decision
“… rather than doing the hard work to make legislation that should be the province of the democratically elected government”
Since they know that some of the red states will ban or severely limit it, it would need to be federal.
And lo and behold:
https://thepostmillennial.com/breaking-sen-schumer-says-senate-will-vote-next-week-on-codifying-abortion-rights-into-law?utm_campaign=64487
With the senate at 50:50, can they get the 60 votes needed?
I wonder how the Woke feel about a child’s right to impose the involuntary euthanasia of parents…
…after all, it’s really inconvenient to have to wait for one’s inheritance…
“With the senate at 50:50, can they get the 60 votes needed?”
In my opinion, not a chance. They may not even raise 50.
OK. One more time (following @ 2.52an above) ….”Losing an unborn child is not a subject that’s discussed very openly, considering how frequently it happens: As many as 15 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage….couples kept that loss a secret from many friends and loved ones, even though research shows that the emotional weight of miscarriage is a heavy burden……..“Miscarriages can be devastating to a woman and a couple,” says Alan Copperman, MD, the director of the division of reproductive endocrinology and infertility at Mount Sinai Medical Center in New York City. “This sense of loss is very real and can often take time to recover from.”
So, everyone knows the thing being carried is a human child. Example: “on November 25, 2020, the Duchess of Sussex revealed that she had a miscarriage last July while holding her son, Archie, the child she and Prince Harry had in May 2019….’I knew, as I clutched my firstborn child, that I was losing my second,” she wrote.
One more time. STOP giving the left a free pass on this. The left does NOT see unborn children as clumps of cells. They see them as unborn children like every normal person, then they kill them.
FFS, why let them off the hook on this by pretending leftists do not see foetuses as human beings??
I notice that a many who say “my body, my choice” when it comes to abortion are the same people who think it is okay for governments to coerce you into having the Covid vaccine (some even demand it!) against your wishes.
Strange how suddenly everyone seems to know what a woman is, especially if she has “rights” over her own body!
Chris M
They really don’t want those (predominately minority) babies surviving. Awful.
The fascist left remain as they have always been. Racist to their rotten core, and projecting their ugliness on others.
Dickless
The Pill has serious Side Effects, all the other contraceptives are crap too.
Perhaps those who don’t want children should have a vasectomy/tubal ligation? Indeed, I would make a tubal ligation compulsory with the second abortion.
“They see them as unborn children like every normal person, then they kill them.”
While that seems to be the case, it is important to understand there is a difference between left and right (in the US at least) with regards to what “termination of pregnancy” means.
To the right, this means killing the unborn child.
To the left, this means the end of the pregnancy.
Bear in mind that a pregnancy can be “ended” prematurely without killing the child – after 21 weeks, either an induced labour or other means to remove the child from the womb can be done and the child can survive with modern ICU care, same as many natural premature births. Hence for lefties it is a different argument about 3rd trimester “abortions” as opposed to killing them – there is no reason, in their minds, that the pregnancy can’t be “terminated” while NOT killing the child.
Not true for all of them of course, but this is what the more “moderate” ones will claim. The “acid test” of course would be what any legislation actually stipulated in this regard.
Not saying I agree with any of it, just pointing out the difference in “ideation” on what an “abortion” means and what the consequences thereof are for the unborn child.
They really don’t want those (predominately minority) babies surviving. Awful.
Who is “They”?
The fascist left remain as they have always been. Racist to their rotten core, and projecting their ugliness on others.
This will be a huge shock to you, Spongebob, but:
1. Non Whites have Agency
2. Fascism is always and everywhere a Movement of The Right
“They see them as unborn children like every normal person, then they kill them.”
Again, who is “They”?
Dickless
2. Fascism is always and everywhere a Movement of The Right
This will come as a shock to you, but fascism is always and everywhere a movement of the left. Mussolini was an ex-communist, the full name of Hitler’s party was the National Socialist German Workers’ Party, its flag had a red background.
Fascism and communism are both heresies of socialism.
Dickless
1. Non Whites have Agency
To the extent that leftists allow them to have it, which is restricted by the left’s racism. See: African-Americans and Australian indigenes.
I notice that a many who say “my body, my choice” when it comes to abortion are the same people who think it is okay for governments to coerce you into having the Covid vaccine (some even demand it!) against your wishes.
well spotted.
These people jobs are to politicise every issue no matter how ephemeral their stake in it is.
The MSM give them a forum and it’s off to the races
Support the right to abortion, you’re a Leftist, oppose it and you’re a Hater.
Basically, the MSM discourage discussion and encourage lawlessness.
This will come as a shock to you, but fascism is always and everywhere a movement of the left.
Franco was a Leftist?
Dickless
Predominantly a nationalist, but look at his close allies – Hitler and Mussolini.
Dictator Dan cut his teeth on abortion years ago. He delivered the most permissive abortion laws ever to Victoria. Bernie Finn’s March for the Babies will take place in October on Pozzbourne streets for the first since 2019. Here is a short video about the late term abortions and sex selective abortions that take place in Sicktoria:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmZY-or7XV4
Collectivists are sick, evil personages (if they could be dignified with such a term) and their obsession with slaughtering infants en masse proves this obvious observation beyond any doubt.
To be a collectivist is to be an unrepentant monster.
Quite correct – read the National Socialist German Worker’s Party platform, sometime, and you tell me that that isn’t Leftist.
SpongeBob & SpongeBob Jnr:
No Abortion in Franco’s Spain, he garroted abortionists.
Therefore Franco was no Leftist.
Mussolini:
He correctly perceived that grifters voting borrowed Stock was
impoverishing Italy and he put a stop to it.
Leftist?
Only a fool would make that claim.
In other words, it was founded as a Right Wing Party and it stayed a Right Wing Party.
The whole left vs right thing can be a distraction. It’s good vs evil. The left just happen to support all the evil ideas (hence it’s Latin name).
But putting that truth aside – Were the Nazis of the left? Yes. They were collectivist, anti-religion, nationalised industry and generally meddled in every German citizens affair (just like leftists). Sure they had a lot of stuff we’d call “of the right” but these days anything on the right is historically leftist (eg. like people on the right supporting gay marriage). Basically after the Weimar Republic you just had one leftist evil hierarchy take over from another.
Ed Casesays:
May 7, 2022 at 4:56 am
SpongeBob & SpongeBob Jnr:
No Abortion in Franco’s Spain, he garroted abortionists.
Therefore Franco was no Leftist.
Dickless
If you haven’t got any substantive arguments, then it might be best to remain silent and be thought ignorant than to rush to the keyboard and prove it.
Ed Casesays:
May 7, 2022 at 5:04 am
Mussolini:
He correctly perceived that grifters voting borrowed Stock was
impoverishing Italy and he put a stop to it.
Leftist?
Only a fool would make that claim.
Dickless
Mussolini was a communist pre-WW I.
See my previous comment about ignorance.
Ed Casesays:
May 7, 2022 at 5:25 am
In April 1920, the German Worker’s Party (GWP) changed its name to the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP).
In other words, it was founded as a Right Wing Party and it stayed a Right Wing Party.
Dickless
See my comment at 0927.
Nut, workers parties have always been left wing.
You’re deep in Custer-at-The-Alamo territory.
I wasn’t going to comment on this thread but this story is such breathtaking hypocrisy it is really hard to beat.
W.H.O. Chief Tedros Backs Abortion: It ‘Saves Lives’ (6 May)
By definition abortion 100% kills babies so for him to say it saves lives is ghoulish to the extreme. WHO is clearly another alphabet organization that needs to be extirpated, its buildings demolished and the ground under them salted.
https://www.returnofkings.com/58601/why-modern-leftists-are-fascists
Lee you will upset Mr Ed with that link.
He claims to be a “Liberal”, but actually seems to be a “liberal (= a progressive)” in the American sense. That is, a leftist.
John, he got me to remembering that old article in my PC’s document file.
From there it was a simple matter of googling to find the link.
I agree with you about his politics.
The whole left vs right thing can be a distraction.
Well, yeah, when you’re losing the argument, move the goalposts.
It’s good vs evil. The left just happen to support all the evil ideas (hence it’s Latin name).
So, bombin g you’re own civilians and castrating POWs, like the Ukraine Government is doing, means they’re Leftists?
But putting that truth aside
Gimme a fucking break, you’re talking outta both sides of your mouth now.
– Were the Nazis of the left? Yes. They were collectivist, anti-religion, nationalised industry and generally meddled in every German citizens affair (just like leftists).
Uh, DumbArse, most of the Citizenry were starving at the time the NSDAP were voted into Office.
Sure they had a lot of stuff we’d call “of the right”
Such as?
but these days anything on the right is historically leftist (eg. like people on the right supporting gay marriage).
Huh?
Basically after the Weimar Republic you just had one leftist evil hierarchy take over from another.
The Weimar Republic wasn’t Leftist?
Are you living in Bizarro World, or is English not your first language?
Quite correct – read the National Socialist German Worker’s Party platform, sometime, and you tell me that that isn’t Leftist.
Okay, gissa Link and I’ll read it.
[Sotto voce, Zulu is lying again, he can’t read German, he can’t even read English].
[Sotto voce, Zulu is lying again, he can’t read German, he can’t even read English].
Whereas Dickless might be able to read words, but is completely unable to comprehend their meaning.
Or were they Macadamian snipers?
Or Ukrainian snipers?
Or Lithuanian snipers?
Or Kazakhstanian snipers?
The fog of bovine excrement. Impenetrable, it remains. 😕
Anyway, the point is that Fascism is a Mass Movement of the Right
and Communism is a Mass Movement of the Left.
That is unarguable.
Eddles – totalitarianism is a beast of neither the “left” nor the “right”, but both of them.
FFS.
That is unarguable.
To the contrary Dickless, that is very arguable.
Perhaps you could offer some actual evidence for your opinion, rather that simple (very simple) bland assertions?
Eddles – totalitarianism is a beast of neither the “left” nor the “right”, but both of them.
Sure, but quite a few Trolls on this site are insisting that Fascism can’t be a
movement of the Right.
Have a word with them as well.
Dickless
Sure, but quite a few Trolls on this site are insisting that Fascism can’t be a
movement of the Right.
What it can be, and what it is are two different things. You have waved your metaphorical hands in the air, and dismissed the evidence of Mussolini’s background, and the name and manifesto of the Nazi Party, and not offered any evidence for your assertions (except that Franco allegedly garroted abortionists, not sure how this proves he was right wing).
Che Guevara was a homophobe, a racist, and mass murderer willing to use any means to achieve his self-declared superior society.
Surely Ed’s not going to suggest he was a right-winger?
Ed – 61 million unwanted babies would lead to 61 million social problems.
With improved living standards you would have a family binding together – or one family binding together.
Everyone loves babies. This keeps the family together and the need from eachother to raise the child.
It defers not being lonely for the parents also.
There is also a lot of talent from orphanages and poor back grounds. They. In fact drive societies eg Napoleon , Kevin Rudd.
Could someone tell me why Bec Cartright is on the hawthorn coaching team. WTF.
I would ask for a transfer.
Che Guevara was a homophobe
There ya go, there’s a little bit of good in everybody.
Franco murdered a lot of his own people, he couldn’t find many Spaniards up for the job so he used black african troops to do the dirty work instead..
So look on the bright side, SpongeBob:
Even though Franco was a Right Wing Fascist, at least he wasn’t a Racist.
Ed Casesays:
May 8, 2022 at 7:07 am
Franco murdered a lot of his own people, he couldn’t find many Spaniards up for the job so he used black african troops to do the dirty work instead..
So look on the bright side, SpongeBob:
Even though Franco was a Right Wing Fascist, at least he wasn’t a Racist.
Your so-called “evidence” that Franco was an actual fascist, rather than a bog-standard authoritarian, is still absent. Try again.
PS, seems that you are both a homophobe and a racist.
PPS, the “black African” troops probably came from Spanish Morocco, and might have been Arabs or Berbers.
Franco’s African Army was SubSaharan Africans, they went on rampages of Rape and Murder in the Spanish Civil War, Franco never said a word.
Fascism is as Right Wing as it gets.
Dickless
You still show absolute ignorance of fascism. You seem to think (in accordance with post-war Soviet disinformation) that everyone who is not a communist is a fascist.
Do some research.
The relevant arguments re abortion seem to be about when . At what point is a foetus alive ? The general opinion seems to be when I has a heartbeat . The definition of Murder is the wilful killing of a live human . That’s my opinion (and you know what they say about opinions…) .
That was the definition until quite recently in Europe.
Then some troublemakers got involved, it became a Legal Issue
and money making opportunities flowed from that.
Similar happened with the Age Of Consent.
It was defined as Menarche for centuries in Europe, London Newspapers of the 1890s kicked up a stink about teenage English harlots heading to Paris to make their fortunes, Legislation was passed, moneymaking
[& corruption] opportunities flowed from that.
Dick Ed seems uncomfortably familiar with the issue of teenage harlots.
At what point is a foetus alive ? The general opinion seems to be when (it) has a heartbeat .
O.G., as an operating theatre technician years back, I clearly remember the hours a patient had no heartbeat while his/her heart was being fixed up. So, not alive for that time?
The general opinion as I recall from most embryology textbooks is that the foetus is a living, self-organizing entity, distinct from its two parents, from the moment of its conception. It is clearly alive, even while busy in ways we are still just beginning to understand, constructing things like its heart and brain.
Have you seen the way the caterpillar changes itself into a moth or butterfly by completely rearranging itself? Is the pupa “dead” during that time?
The one thing I Noticed about abortion is that it has nothing to do with “feminism”. Women have the abortion and wound themselves and what ever else that does to their bodies.
The males “ boy I am glad she got rid of that little bastard”.
The sex goes and the males move on , repetitively, with the same behaviour.
The male bangs about the suffering – women fall for it.
Look at couples who kept the baby or couples who Marry and have children early – they mature and lean fast what is important.
I have heard quite a few mums with an aimless sons whose new girlfriend has a child. The get their “shit” together and are working 2 to 3 jobs.
Abortion rights are not determined by a court. They are decided by a normal person, usually a woman.
Imposing a law on this matter is effectively a requirement that poor people have no choice. Everyone with money can do what they like.
It is an elitist imposition of the most obvious kind. In moral terms it is the same as requiring women to wear a burqa, except that the imposition is considerably more onerous.
This argument is an attack on liberty.
Abortion rights are not determined by a court.
Yep. Not even SCOTUS, with its pathetically argued decision in Roe v Wade. Even the leftie Ruth Bader Ginsberg said it was wrongly decided.
They are decided by a normal person, usually a woman.
No. There’s no such thing as “deciding” any human right. You have a right by dint of you being a human being. No-one, woman or man, can decide that an innocent person, born or unborn, deserves to be killed. The Romans were happy with the paterfamilias killing his born children. Happy with that?
Imposing a law on this matter is effectively a requirement that poor people have no choice. Everyone with money can do what they like.
Concedo. Rich people, like the Bidens and Clintons, and even a few popes, have managed to get away with nefarious deeds. That doesn’t make it right. Non sequitur.
It is an elitist imposition of the most obvious kind. In moral terms it is the same as requiring women to wear a burqa, except that the imposition is considerably more onerous.
It’s requiring women and men to care for – and above all, not just slice and dice – an innocent human being they have brought into being. Or at least having them adopted out to someone who would care for them. Like, say, me or my friends or thousands of others. Bit different from the requirement to wear a burqa!
This argument is an attack on liberty.
So the liberty of an innocent human being counts for nothing?
Yeah, this thread is all a load of cobblers.
The true nature of the Alito decision is that the right hates women, and wants them to die if they’re not suitable brood mares for the glory of the white nation.
The tell is that many of the state laws triggered by Roe being overturned do not include any exceptions for rape or incest, plus they ban abortions for ectopic pregnancies and other situations where the health of the mother is at stake.
The extra tell is that next cab off the rank is banning contraception, already on the cards in Mississippi.
For years, this site’s predecessor hosted interminable debates over the fine points of edge cases, but all of that subtlety has been rendered moot by the situation Alito has set up. This is not about life at all, it’s about subjugating women. Anti-abortionists aren’t even pretending any more, there is no fig leaf. It’s all Dominionist domination by a minority of priest-kings.