I have to admit, the more the Left demonises Putin, the more I like him. Seriously, is he worse than what we have here? Is he worse than what the US, UK and EU have?

bemusedsays:
February 6, 2022 at 9:39 am
I have to admit, the more the Left demonises Putin, the more I like him. Seriously, is he worse than what we have here? Is he worse than what the US, UK and EU have?

there’s something to be said for a benevolent dictator type. They may be funnelling wealth to a choice few oligarchs, but at least they’re generating wealth, too.

The left does nothing but destroy.

oh – and they’ve already defined silence as hate speech, so honking can’t be too hard.

Damn! It looks like this site doesn’t conform to normal quote methodology.

The EU and Russia is just 1938 in reverse.

My understanding is that Russia wanted to avoid getting involved in the European conflict, but Germany had other ideas. In all of those intervening years, Russia hasn’t really appeared to have had any expansionist intentions, as far as I’m aware, just concerns about EU and US intentions.

The EU is rapidly becoming a basket case with increasing numbers of ‘refugees’ being foisted on all and sundry EU countries, with some exceptions. Then there is the increasing loss of ‘values’ foisted on all and sundry by the woke Left who seems to rule most of the EU. Then there is the ongoing climate ’emergency’ that if it continues, may destabilise the EU at some point.

These are all likely to be of concern for Putin who is against all of this. Putin has often voiced his concerns about the decline in western values and I suspect that he is increasingly concerned about the future.

Nice screenscchhhot

“Is he worse than what the US, UK and EU have?”
No, but he may be smarter.

No, but he may be smarter.

I would say that he’s a lot smarter, especially as there’s no competition in the west. Hungary being at least one exception (I consider Hungary to be of the west), whose prime minister is also hated by the Left. There seems to be a pattern here.

My understanding is that Russia wanted to avoid getting involved in the European conflict, but Germany had other ideas.

@bemused

I don’t think so. Stalin saw an opportunity to annex a substantial portion of Poland at essentially no cost. Stalin was absolutely gobsmacked when Hitler turned his back on their non-aggression pact in 1941.

bemused says:
February 6, 2022 at 11:54 am

My understanding is that Russia wanted to avoid getting involved in the European conflict, but Germany had other idea

You might want to ask the Poles about that….

The reality is that Maxist ideology is inevitably authoritarian, inevitably bloody – because what do you do when you define anyone who doesn’t comply as an enemy of the people – and views its domination of the world as a historic inevitability.

Stalin was not ready for WW2, partly because he had recently engaged in a very bloody purge of his own army, but he shows every sign of regarding conflict with Germany as inevitable, as Hitler did conflict with Russia.

It is blind to ignore the degree to which they – and the people that they lead – regarded Great Power rivalry and military conflict as normal.

The same error is often made by Australian historians who show a marked lack of understanding regarding Australia’s interests in the “European” First and Second World Wars. Australia was acutely aware that it existed in a world of militarily-competitive Empires. We built fortifications at the entrances to Sydney Harbour and Port Philip because of a succession of felt threats from the French and Russians. In 1914 the Germans had possessions in the Pacific and part of their pre-war planning was to interdict our lines of trade and support with Britain. We were not outside of world events.

You might want to ask the Poles about that….

Again, Putin is not Stalin and there are now two confirmations that, at the time, Russia did not want to get into the European conflict. And what happened post-WWII is not to be confused with what is happening now.

As an aside, after WWII, Poland was given a ‘large’ portion of Germany. Also, following the collapse of the Soviet union, the countries that were annexed post-WWII now have independence.

PeterW there are also the cannons at Battery Point in Hobart and one on Thursday Island to help fight off the Russians over a hundred years ago.

Fixed

Only in the sense of “match-fixing” and “race-fixing”.

Nothing honest about it.

If you cannot honestly discuss WW2, what else will you misrepresent?

Again, Putin is not Stalin

Well this, obviously. That claim is not being made. Strawman.

there are now two confirmations that, at the time, Russia did not want to get into the European conflict.

…..and this. Just on their own terms. And if you do not count the invasion of Poland as “the European War”, despite the fact that the invasion of Poland was the trigger for declaration of War by Britain and France.

As an aside, after WWII, Poland was given a ‘large’ portion of Germany.

As both Poland and East-Germany were occupied states, reduced to vassalage under the Soviet Empire – so benign, those Soviets – it’s hardly a beneficence. That’s ignoring the historical reality that the territory in question was disputed – a dispute going back to a another period when Poland was occupied by the Russians and Germans.

It seems to have been a bit of a habit.
Not to mention the Russian invasion of Poland in 1919-21.

Nice, easygoing neighbours, those Russians. Now they have a Leader who is on record as desiring to restore Russian “Greatness”. The history of Russian greatness would make anyone in that area, nervous.

Petros says:
February 6, 2022 at 3:27 pm
PeterW there are also the cannons at Battery Point in Hobart and one on Thursday Island to help fight off the Russians over a hundred years ago

Fair point.

I’m a little focused on the mainland, partly because Grandfather was stationed at Ft Queenscliff at the beginning of both World Wars. As you no doubt know, the first hostile shots fired by British and Commonwealth forces, came from a gun in the Port Philip defenses. I believe they were classified as the most heavily-defended harbours in the Souther Hemisphere at the time.

Stalin was absolutely gobsmacked when Hitler turned his back on their non-aggression pact in 1941.

Well, that’s sorta true, since the Red Army was poised to launch a surprise attack on Germany from the new border.
Richard Sorge in Tokyo had got a heads up and warned the Soviets that an attack was imminent, but Stalin dismissed the warning as misinformation.

ML…

I think the seeming contradiction in Hitler’s opening of the Eastern Front can be seen in mutual paranoia and timing.

There is good reason to believe that both Hitler and Stalin regarded war as inevitable. Hitler was on record as claiming “living room” for Germany, regarding the additional territory and resources as necessary for both supporting Germany as a major military and economic power, and creating a deep defensible territory between German heartland and what he viewed as an aggressive Russian power. Territory equalled security to Germans who saw themselves as “surrounded”.
Stalin simply was not ready for War, and knew it. The Red Army got a very bloody nose in its previous invasion of Poland , had been through a major purge and had not finished rebuilding. Its weaknesses were made obvious on their invasion of Finland.
The Molotov-Ribbentrop plan is best seen on both sides as a cynical agreement to put off hostilities while each party sought advantage elsewhere. It was anything but a commitment to long-term peace.

Post-war examination of Hitler’s documents appears to show that his Grand Strategy was to win on the Western Front before engaging on the Eastern Front, thereby avoiding the two-front war. Having defeated both France and Russia, the further plan was to use the resources of a united Europe to create a navy capable of challenging the combined US and Royal Navies, in order to cement Germany as a global power, not just a continental power.

Hitler’s gamble was that he could win consecutive campaigns before the Red Army could build to full strength. To what extent the refusal of Britain to accept peace, and the American refusal to give up their trade with Britain and the attacks on American ships and personnel that a blockade of Britain rendered necessary, is debatable, but it is certain that the ongoing conflict in the West reduced the resources that he could allocate to the Eastern Front.

“No plan survives… etc”

This is an excellent read ‘Operation Barbarossa And Germany’s Failure In The Soviet Union‘. It goes a long way to explain why a country that was almost brought to its knees, has no intention of seeing a repeat.

I was born in Finland, served in the Finnish Army back in 1974 and have family that lives close to the Russian border. My time in the Finnish Army was all about defending the country from a Russian invasion, as that was still the perceived threat. That is not the case today, but Finland is still prepared.

Another pattern that emerged about this time, was the failure of “Blitzkrieg “ against well dug-troops and commanders who refused to be flustered.

The first sign of this was at Tobruk, El Alamein and then Stalingrad and Leningrad. Say what we will about Stalin’s ruthlessness – it cost the Red Army massive casualties – but it also forced the Wehrmacht to grind through armies that might otherwise have surrendered at far less cost to the Germans.

ML….

I assume you mean an agreement with France and Britain, as an alternative to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

I suspect that you are right and that Stalin hoped that the Germans would exhaust themselves fighting in the West, allowing him to invade from the East.

He was a nasty piece of work.

Here’s an oldie just for you…

I could well imagine something like that happening. The reparations that the Finns had to pay the USSR after WWII was enough to cement a very long-term dislike of the Kremlin. On the other hand, it didn’t stop the Finns from visiting and bringing back cheap vodka.

@kneel says:
February 7, 2022 at 12:19 pm

Absolutely and note how the US is kowtowing to China in every respect, yet keep calling Russia evil.

@PeterW says:
February 7, 2022 at 9:14 pm

I did, because you seem to imply, as I alluded, that the sins of the father (Stalin) are the sins of the son (Putin). Given my background, I think I have a much better understanding of the tensions between the old USSR and the new Russia, its neighbouring countries and how their populations feel.

The US and the media lap dogs make Putin out to be some sort of monster, but is he truly worse than the Democrats? How many people have the Democrats killed (directly or indirectly) vs Putin? Who hates and who loves their country? Who is and who isn’t selling out their country and their people? Who is actually enslaving their people?

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