New Catallaxy

Self-defence in extremis

Self-defence is available to individuals to communities and to nations. It is ethically and legally sound to engage in self-defence.

The principle of proportionality should be applied when engaging in self-defence. This means that you should do no more advertently, than is necessary to remove the threat. For example, if somebody begins punching you on the nose you are justified in punching back until your adversary is incapable of punching you again. You would not be justified in deliberately killing your adversary. However, if your adversary vowed to begin punching you at every opportunity until you were dead, you would be justified in killing or permanently disabling your adversary, if there was no other way to prevent such attacks on your person.

If, having repelled an attack on your person by an adversary intent on your death, such adversary asked for time-out to recover in order to resume the attack, you would be justified in not granting the time-out.

I hope this is all clear. Joe Biden, Antony Blinken, Anthony Albanese, and Penny Wong should take note. So far as I know, the Allies didn’t pause their push into Germany and suspend fighting to allow humanitarian aid to reach German civilian populations. They suspected, no doubt, that the Wehrmacht might take the opportunity to regroup.

Peter Smith

46 responses to “Self-defence in extremis”

  1. flyingduk Avatar
    flyingduk

    The principle of proportionality should be applied when engaging in self-defence. This means that you should do no more advertently, than is necessary to remove the threat

    Says who?, particularly if the attacks have been repeated over time.

    The role of your military is to ruthlessly eliminate your enemy, before lunch, on the first day, with a 100:1 kill ratio, then to enjoy his cattle and his women… pour encourager les autres….

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  2. Winston Smith Avatar
    Winston Smith

    What the flying duk says.
    We have watched the Middle East flare up into war on many, many, occasions because proportionality has been used.
    At the start of the 6 day war, Israel should have used most of her nukes against anyone who was in the coalition against her:
    United Arab Republic
    Syria
    Jordan
    Iraq
    Saudi Arabia
    Kuwait
    Lebanon
    ALL of these nations should have had their capitals smashed, major infrastructure destroyed, and taught to never, ever raise a hand against Israel.
    Had this happened, the sputtering war of proxies would not be continuing to this day, and the loss of life would probably have been less.
    War is war – it isn’t a game where diplomats get to scurry around the globe attending meetings and peace banquets at the cost of thousands of civilian lives with no end in sight to the war or the meetings.
    I can think of a better way to spend $58 billion a year than subsidising their jaunts, meetings, book deals, and egos.
    A major trimming of these functionaries is in order.

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  3. Pogria Avatar
    Pogria

    Israel needs to go TE Lawrence on those baby butchering turds.

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  4. Roger Avatar
    Roger

    Acc. to US State Dept on Friday:

    Israel will “refine” its tactics in the coming week as it focuses on clearing specific areas in northern Gaza.

    This will enable more humanitarian aid to enter.

    It may also facilitate the release of more hostages.

    The US is framing this as a response to Biden/Blinken requests, although it may also represent simply the next planned phase of the war from Israel’s viewpoint.

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  5. Salvatore, Iron Publican Avatar
    Salvatore, Iron Publican

    ALP data wonk Kos Samaras condenses the Herald Sun’s reporting of his latest polling & data analysis:

    1. Labor is behind the LNP on primary vote in the outer suburbs
    2. Labor has increased its support amongst uni grads
    3. LNP now significantly in front amongst voters with Year 12 or less education levels. (Labor was way ahead in August).
    4. LNP marginally in front amongst those with a TAFE qualification.
    5. Labor in front amongst those earning less than 1k a week, mostly people on welfare.
    Greens support amongst 18-34s now matches the LNP nationally
    6. The LNPs pathway to victory is still extremely narrow.
    7. Most of Labor’s decline is occurring in the outer suburbs and within its safe seats (there is not much fat left on some of those safe seats, especially in Melbourne)

    On 2PP, Labor leads the LNP across all the above, marginally, because of the Greens.

    These trends, if they continue will upend how many within Labor conduct themselves. No more safe seats will be a huge culture shock for some.

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  6. Salvatore, Iron Publican Avatar
    Salvatore, Iron Publican

    oop, rong thread. (how embarrassing)

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  7. duncanm Avatar
    duncanm

    This means that you should do no more advertently, than is necessary to remove the threat.

    Pertinent – why is the world full of arseholes?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRcfqpyuk9k

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  8. Plasmamortar Avatar
    Plasmamortar

    If genocide/ethnic cleansing and conquering of land can be justified for one side, it can be justified for all sides…

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  9. duncanm Avatar
    duncanm

    genocide/ethnic cleansing

    evidence, please.

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  10. Plasmamortar Avatar
    Plasmamortar

    evidence, please.

    see here

    I really couldn’t care less if everyone in the region on both sides were wiped off the map.

    I just find it interesting when people are happy to justify the killing of others as long as you feel morally superior…

    Remember, the allies bombed plenty of civilians in Dresden…

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  11. flyingduk Avatar
    flyingduk

    There really are no ‘civilians’ in war, its a recent invention. This is particularly true in todays realtime media driven, 5th generation war. You might not be a ‘warfighter’, but you are nevertheless a weapon – whether you are building munitions, growing food or dying for the cameras, you dont get to opt out – all you get to do is chose your side. Sadly, wishing it was otherwise does not make it so.

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  12. duncanm Avatar
    duncanm

    Plasmamortar
    Nov 5, 2023 12:18 PM
    evidence, please.

    see here

    thanks for that. Certainly an option worth considering.

    At what point is a neighbour so troublesome that evicting them is the solution?

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  13. duncanm Avatar
    duncanm

    btw – its an ethnic cleansing plan, but not a genocide plan.

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  14. STJOHNOFGRAFTON Avatar
    STJOHNOFGRAFTON

    If you can find a self-defence school near you credentialed to teach Krav Maga (KM) then avail yourself of the training. Krav Maga was originally developed by Jews to protect themselves in Europe from fascist bullies. It was later adopted and developed for Israel’s IDF. If you can’t access a KM school, then at least learn some basic moves from an instructional video. It might save your life.

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  15. Plasmamortar Avatar
    Plasmamortar

    There really are no ‘civilians’ in war, its a recent invention. This is particularly true in todays realtime media driven, 5th generation war. You might not be a ‘warfighter’, but you are nevertheless a weapon – whether you are building munitions, growing food or dying for the cameras, you dont get to opt out – all you get to do is chose your side. Sadly, wishing it was otherwise does not make it so.

    I agree with this completely.
    There is no such thing as an ‘innocent’ in war as you are guilty of the crime of being a citizen of a particular country.

    It also makes disarming your population an vilification of firearm owners seem even more stupid than it already is…

    Also, why have we been sending our best troops to fight U.S. wars for 20+ years while our navy gets sent out to pick up boat people and bring then here???

    Seems counter-productive to defending the nation…

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  16. Speedbox Avatar
    Speedbox

    My understanding is that the international law is exactly as Peter says. In the case of Israel, they are within their rights, legally, to continue their actions until the (actual and potential) actions/threat by Hamas is eliminated. If innocent civilians are killed that is sad and unfortunate, but doesn’t diminish a State’s right to self-defense and eliminating the threat.

    In fact, I also understand that civilian losses are, legally, ‘acceptable’ or at least acknowledged as unavoidable PROVIDED the State is acting proportionally. States do have an obligation to try and minimize civilian losses wherever practical but that obligation does not over-ride the right to self defense and elimination of the threat.

    It’s why the allies and Russia didn’t stop at the German border in WW2. It could have been argued that Germany was defeated and was contained within their own borders – but, of course, the Nazi threat hadn’t been eliminated. Thus, the allies and Russia pushed on. Ditto with the Japanese and the use of nuclear weapons was still proportional relative to the future threat of a resurgent Japan.

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  17. Plasmamortar Avatar
    Plasmamortar

    My understanding is that the international law is exactly as Peter says. In the case of Israel, they are within their rights, legally, to continue their actions until the (actual and potential) actions/threat by Hamas is eliminated. If innocent civilians are killed that is sad and unfortunate, but doesn’t diminish a State’s right to self-defense and eliminating the threat.

    Laws are just a formal way of telling people how things are going to be before force is applied.

    A law means nothing if it is not enforced with violence.

    In the case of countries, so called ‘international law’ only applies to everyone except the U.S. as there is no other country powerful enough to hold them accountable.

    Consider this, if the U.S. decided to carpet nuke a country like New Zealand into the ground, what would realistically happen to them?

    A law is simply a formal way of saying ‘my dick is bigger than your dick’

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  18. Winston Smith Avatar
    Winston Smith

    duncanm

    Nov 5, 2023 12:02 PM
    This means that you should do no more advertently, than is necessary to remove the threat.

    Pertinent – why is the world full of arseholes?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRcfqpyuk9k

    That is so very very true. It explains my position in the Israel/Muzzie fights, and it explains the behaviour of the Negro population in the US as well as the Aboriginal Youth Problem in Australia.

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  19. Winston Smith Avatar
    Winston Smith

    Flyingduk:

    There really are no ‘civilians’ in war, its a recent invention. This is particularly true in todays realtime media driven, 5th generation war. You might not be a ‘warfighter’, but you are nevertheless a weapon – whether you are building munitions, growing food or dying for the cameras, you dont get to opt out – all you get to do is chose your side. Sadly, wishing it was otherwise does not make it so.

    Far too many in the West get their ideas of war and its rules from “Red Dawn”, “Sniper” and other Hollywood feelgood movies.
    They do not understand the concept of Military Necessity and the ugliness of what it entails.

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  20. Winston Smith Avatar
    Winston Smith

    Plasmamortar:

    Also, why have we been sending our best troops to fight U.S. wars for 20+ years while our navy gets sent out to pick up boat people and bring then here???
    Seems counter-productive to defending the nation…

    Our navy is defending an ideology – it is not defending our nation.

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  21. Perplexed of Brisbane Avatar
    Perplexed of Brisbane

    Winston Smith
    Nov 5, 2023 1:25 PM

    Far too many in the West get their ideas of war and its rules from “Red Dawn”, “Sniper” and other Hollywood feelgood movies.
    They do not understand the concept of Military Necessity and the ugliness of what it entails.

    Hence the vapours our betters are feeling and therefore the trumped up charges against Ben Roberts-Smith and other SAS troops for alleged war crimes.

    I think he said, “It is better to fight them over there than over here.”

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  22. The Beer Whisperer Avatar
    The Beer Whisperer

    It is here where i draw the distinction between what people deserve and what should be done. Unfortunately Israel is playing their part in the narratives of marxists among the populace and the media, where meting out what Hamas deserve damages their support internationally, which they cannot exist without, without going full nuclear.

    I can’t tell them where their limits should be, but they most certainly should be trying to get maximum results for minimum bad PR. Jordan Peterson claimed that this was a desperate attempt by Iran to destroy the Abraham Accords. Worth keeping in mind when determining what victory looks like.

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  23. flyingduk Avatar
    flyingduk

    I think he said, “It is better to fight them over there than over here.”

    Pity we combined ‘fight over there’ with ‘leave the castle unguarded at home’ then wasnt it?

    Example #1: massive pro Hamas, antisemetic demonstrations in every western capital of late.

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  24. duncanm Avatar
    duncanm

    What is quite evident, is that Israel has the most well equipped, well trained, and morally-guided armies on the planet.

    They are fighting against ruthless barbarians who deliberately target civilians, and do not even think protecting civilians on their side is their problem.

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  25. billie Avatar
    billie

    STJOHNOFGRAFTON
    Nov 5, 2023 12:48 PM
    If you can find a self-defence school near you credentialed to teach Krav Maga (KM) then avail yourself of the training.

    Krav Maga is instantly useable, from your first lesson or even watching a demonstration or video.

    I wouldn’t bother with any other martial art if you want some self defence training and don’t want to train for years or for it to become your lifestyle.

    It doesn’t rely on body strength, it helps but you don’t need it to know what to do when trouble is around.

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  26. Rabz Avatar
    Rabz

    The principle of proportionality should be applied when engaging in self-defence.

    Yeah, no.

    You put your enemies down so far they don’t get up again.

    Which Israel and the Jewish peoples (BIRM) now need to do.

    I want Greater Israel to emerge from this. The Sinai, the West Bank, The Golan and Southern Lebanon.

    arab free zones. Forever.

    Enough.

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  27. Rabz Avatar
    Rabz

    moozley arab free zones, just to clarify …

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  28. Rufus T Firefly Avatar
    Rufus T Firefly

    “What is quite evident, is that Israel has the most well equipped, well trained, and morally-guided armies on the planet.”

    Really?
    What happened on October 7th then?
    Israel has NEVER been weaker than now, compared to its neighbours.
    This is why it should never have entered Gaza.
    It had the sympathy and respect of most of the world. That has now evaporated.

    Who was it that took away the “human” element of surveillance in Southern Israel and moved them to the North, then relied solely on a computer system, that had been publicly advertised, to anyone who was interested in how it worked?

    2,000 fighters entering Israel and 2,000 rockets fired is no small undertaking, yet, despite Egypt stating that they warned Israel, no increased security was contemplated.
    Who made that decision?
    Hint, the answer to the last 2 Q’s, are the same guy.

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  29. jupes Avatar
    jupes

    It had the sympathy and respect of most of the world. That has now evaporated.

    Not for me, it hasn’t. Anyone who doesn’t support Israel now, never did.

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  30. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    It had the sympathy and respect of most of the world.

    The world loves to weep over dead Jews. Jews don’t.

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  31. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    Hint, the answer to the last 2 Q’s, are the same guy.

    Could be military and intelligence thought it would be a normal riot on the border, and kept it from Netanyahu because of the political divisions over judicial reform.

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  32. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    I want Greater Israel to emerge from this.

    Return of the original Mandate extending east to about 20 miles past the Hejaz railway.

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  33. Winston Smith Avatar
    Winston Smith

    Katzenjammer:
    Perhaps just the West bank and the Golan Heights. You need defensible borders that don’t require a Maginot Line.
    Then flood the Dead Sea – if possible. It looks like there’s a 30 Km stretch to the north that would take a canal/pipeline to the Sea of Galilee and all points south.
    Build 3 or four dams with roadways as chokepoints, and let the Arabs try and assault across them.

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  34. Winston Smith Avatar
    Winston Smith

    OK, cancel that idea – the Sea of Galilee is freshwater. I thought it would be quite salty considering it’s origin and the landform.

  35. duncanm Avatar
    duncanm

    Rufus – that’s an intelligence failure.

  36. DrBeauGan Avatar
    DrBeauGan

    The principle of proportionality should be applied when engaging in self-defence.

    It depends on who you are fighting. If it’s zombies, or Hamas, the only sane response is to destroy them completely. The principle holds only if you are fighting human beings. Zombies don’t count. After 7th October, neither does Hamas.

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  37. duncanm Avatar
    duncanm

    So true DrBG.

    These are not people that can be negotiated with in any rational manner.

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  38. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha Avatar
    Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Perhaps just the West bank and the Golan Heights. You need defensible borders that don’t require a Maginot Line.

    The I.D.F. says the valley of the Jordan river is the Worlds finest anti tank ditch.

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  39. Helen Davidson (nmrn) Avatar
    Helen Davidson (nmrn)

    From Enders Game, by Orson Scott Card….

    ‘Tell me why you kept on kicking him. You had already won.’

    ‘Knocking him down won the first fight. I wanted to win all the next ones, too. So they’d leave me alone.’”

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  40. Winston Smith Avatar
    Winston Smith

    ZK2A:

    The I.D.F. says the valley of the Jordan river is the Worlds finest anti tank ditch.

    I’d like to see it extended south, and a bit deeper. Also fluctuating levels so the banks turn into glue when anything tries to cross.

  41. C. Paul Barreira Avatar
    C. Paul Barreira

    Plasmamortar.

    Almost all the Jews of Dresden survived the bombing, subsequently destroying all identifying insignia etc.—and so surviving orders for their fairly immediate transportation to Theresienstadt. See The Diaries of Victor Klemperer 1942–45 (1999), p. xiii.

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  42. Enyaw Avatar
    Enyaw

    Winston Smith , Drones !! ?

  43. Winston Smith Avatar
    Winston Smith

    Wayne:

    Nov 7, 2023 6:52 AM
    Winston Smith , Drones !! ?

    Certainly a game changer – if the feed isn’t interrupted or ignored.
    It seems that this was the issue with the wall and surveillance. Camera feeds being ignored as they failed and the operators being indifferent as to why. The other aspect is that they weren’t indifferent – calling out a recon overflight is expensive in terms of aircraft time and money, as well as the operators professionality. Too many false alarms + operator reluctance to call one is endemic throughout bureaucratic organisations. The operator must have rigid Standing Orders to protect themselves otherwise a “Shoot the Messenger” ethos becomes ingrained.
    But yes – drones – especially drone swarms – are a game changer, and we are in the very early days of their use, similar to tanks in the fields in France in1917.

  44. Peter West Avatar
    Peter West

    So far as I know, the Allies didn’t pause their push into Germany and suspend fighting to allow humanitarian aid to reach German civilian populations. They suspected, no doubt, that the Wehrmacht might take the opportunity to regroup.

    That includes the firebombing of Hamburg and Dresden, and of course, on the other side of the world, Tokyo and probably other Japanese cities. Then, of course, there were Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    This is a disturbingly blood-thirsty forum. Until recently I shared the taste for remote peoples’ blood. During earlier incursions into Gaza, I was disappointed that Israel stopped its offensives, voicelessly urging them, from my seat at the computer, to get on with it. Now not so much.

    Mark Durie has a useful primer on Hamas, starting here., including the doctrine (in part 2) of waqf, by which lands once subjected to Islam are Muslim in perpetuity.

    This doctrine has similarities to the attitude of religious Jews to Judea and Samaria. Given such fundamental differences, the prospects for a 2-state solution do not look good, but it’s that or war until one side or the other is completely annihilated.

    It may or may not be relevant that, despite the Chechen wars, Chechen forces fight alongside other Russian ethnicities and religions in Ukraine. Unfortunately, there is no equivalent of “Russian identity” in the region of Israel.

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  45. Chris Avatar
    Chris

    This doctrine has similarities to the attitude of religious Jews to Judea and Samaria. Given such fundamental differences, the prospects for a 2-state solution do not look good, but it’s that or war until one side or the other is completely annihilated.

    LOL
    Nice 2-state solution you wanted there, shame if anything were to happen of it.

  46. Judge Dredd Avatar
    Judge Dredd

    This is a disturbingly blood-thirsty forum

    Yes, it’s quite disturbing. This is how people can be twisted by hatred and spill the blood of innocents as long as the ends justify the means.
    Instead, pray for peace as there are no good outcomes here for Israel or the middle-east at large.

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