As promised, given recent developments and the threat of the Gaza situation spiraling into a regional war its probably best to concentrate news and discussion of them into a single thread.
US tripling it’s nuclear power generation capacity, while we run the nation into the ground with mirrors and windmills. We…
I agree with you, Craig Foster has to go. I usually record Danica’s program and watch it later so when…
I remember bus conductors being called clippies for punching the passengers’ bus tickets.
Hey bern Sound like Sydney is having only a moderately bad day. On the coast of NSW, we can beat…
Case in point. A ‘friend’, a 60+ woman, PhD, independently wealthy, travelled the world, no lasting relationships, no children. Her…
I doubt a wider war is ahead in the ME. But, for sure Israel has entered a new stage in it’s turbulent history. Yet to see exactly what that will look like.
From the OT thread:
ISRAELI STRATEGY AND PALESTINIAN DESPAIR
by Cole S. Aronson
10 . 13 . 23
Depriving Palestinians of their instruments of terror is the only way to persuade them that the century-old goal of driving Jews out of Israel is impossible.
Thanks for your reply Makka on OT.
You’re welcome P.
Agreed. I think it unlikely that other ME states will go to war in support of Hamas, given the position taken by the USA and other countries. However, if Israel were to attack Iran or other states that situation would rapidly change.
Why doubt it Makka? It seems to me things really are on a knife edge at the moment. I’m hearing of constant skirmishing and artillery exchanges on the Lebanon border. That two airports in Syria were hit two nights ago. And now the US is sending another two aircraft carrier groups because they must think that two alone is insufficient deterrence.
I see only two choices that resolve the Gaza issue permanently.
Kill them all and let God sort it out.
or
Disperse them to the 4 winds. The EU will have to take them.
These are the time honored alternatives.
What to do about all the west bank Pali’s and the stabby arab Israeli citizens is not so clear. Israel fncked up by not ethnically cleansing after the 70’s wars.
They are not going to go to war for Hamas, but they may very well go to war if the Palestinian civilians in Gaza suffer horrendous losses and/or it looks like the ethnic cleansing of Gazans in Gaza is in the offing. That is what would draw the West Bank into the conflict and Hezbollah in the north, neither of which are fans of Hamas, and the surrounding countries might be drawn in by their own populations who will be restless, and the loss of prestige if they just sit back and do nothing while this happens.
There are really no good avenues available at the moment, but there are some that are better or worse.
Sorry – wrong thread!!!!
Things ARE on a knife edge, but I very much doubt nukes will be used. Israel may threaten to do so, but Israel really needs to get cracking on destroying the Iranian Bomb project, because if there’s one thing the mad mullahs will do is use them. And they may just not use the first one until they have half a dozen or so. This is the danger – when they have 6 bombs, they use the first couple and then threaten the use of the rest if there is any retaliation.
Other states in the ME have far too much to lose by widening this war. Lebanon is already a basket case. Jordan, Egypt – no way. They want to stay on side with the ROW and do business. Their populations are exploding and economies completely linked to peace. Syria has been at a low level war already for years so further skirmishes there isn’t really any change.
The Carrier Battle Groups are threats but more like oil on water. The Saudi’s are doing some posturing and fence sitting but have no real military force or resolve to to take on the IDF.
Lastly. all Arab states ( I don’t include Iran as an Arab state) just want the Palestine situation and Palestinians to go TF away. There is no mileage for them to go into a hugely expensive and disruptive hot war over Palestinians , when they know Israel will do the job anyway.
It’s just Iran trying to break the Saudi-Israeli deal, isn’t it?
Iran has everything to do with it dotty. On many different levels. Which means China is behind the curtain, in bed with Iran. I think this this is a proxy situation. China/Iran/Hamas vs Israel/USA. Only one winner but hugely disruptive which falls China’s way- keeping the US busy in both Ukraine and the ME and propagandizing the US as a global interventionist empire building trouble maker. The Great Game afoot.
Reading one of those “puff” pieces on our ABC relating to flights home and the usual, “whingers not happy” crowd about being off-loaded in London and having to pay your own bills …… The bit that got me was, and I don’t know where they get their figures from, “1600 Oz in Gaza” …. ya gotta be kiddin’, shirley! ……..
if you prefer life in Gaza to Oz .. no sympathy .. FFS!
China/Iran/Hamas vs Israel/USA.
I don’t read too much into it .. it’s standard procedure for Chicoms to be on opposites to the USA regardless of the situation .. ….. it’s the China/USA SNAFU system at play ……….!
Check the follow-up comments to see how strained the US Navy is right now.
Women in London, removing posters of those missing in Israel.
Words fail me, they honestly do.
Dover – That fine caricature art is very unlike you! 😀
Vlad is suffering a terrible wedgie at the moment. He’s desperate for the arms he’s getting from Iran but also is being confronted by the sizeable number of Russian Jews who died at the hands of Hamas, who’re Iran’s clients.
On the other hand Z has been trying to buy in on the Israeli side but is getting zero traction. Go away annoying person! Maybe he shouldn’t’ve been so critical about Israel. Those Azov guys probably aren’t helpful either.
Makka, I think all of this depends on the extent of the carnage. At some point, even those considerations will be cast aside.
A few points to consider when thinking about the big picture in the ME:
– The Palestinian Authority has been quiet as a mouse this week. I for one haven’t heard a thing from them and wouldn’t they be the ones most justified in complaining about what is happening to their fellow “Palestinians”?
– King Abdullah of Jordan had his army meet the surge of “Palestinian” protestors heading for the Israeli border with tanks and tear gas, turning them back. The protestors were unarmed and carried no food, water or sleeping kit so I’m not sure how serious they were either.
– After a few pro-forma mortar attacks Syria has been quiet… even after the IDF bombed the runways at Aleppo and Damascus to block Iranian munitions carrying cargo planes from using it (successfully).
– Egypt has kept the Sinai border crossings from Gaza closed.
– Hezbollah shot a few rockets and rattled some sabers, but all in all have done nothing.
– All of the senior staff of Hamas are living a luxurious life sitting in Qatar, next to the Al Jazeera studios, their bankers, and their support structure. They don’t seem to be too eager to return to Gaza at all.
In all, it appears that nobody really likes Hamas and by extension the Gazans. Not even their brother Muslims. They may make a little noise to demonstrate Muslim solidarity but when the rubber meets the road it doesn’t look like they are interested in getting their asses kicked for them. Most of all, they don’t want to get stuck with the impending Gazan/Hamas refugee problem.
I could be totally wrong of course, but worth consideration I think.
Time for the Jews to go hard and end this shite from the arabs.
The being nice has to end.
ABC. Clearly many Gazans believe Israel, not hamas.
Yes, it’s a consideration. That’s what I meant by “it falls China’s way”. The only prime beneficiary I can see in all this is China with it’s threats to Taiwan and the US kept busy elsewhere. Timing is everything so it’s not impossible this a stage in China’s plans for Taiwan.
….. except some of our fellow citizens
Who like them so much they moved 8500 miles away from them? Big difference in barracking for them from afar and living with them.
And the demonstrations might not have been as much in true support of Hamas as an excuse to stretch their strength and influence here.
Timing is everything so it’s not impossible this a stage in China’s plans for Taiwan.
+1000
Ukraine is a known known
Taiwan is an unknown known
but the HAMAS attack was an unknown unknown and has potential to throw sand into the gears.
Point being I think China senses the west is going on a war footing, mate tells me he knows apparently the ADI factory in Benalla has cranked up production of ball ammo over blank. Anyone who does reloading of their ammo have been telling me for a year now how short powder is getting. I’d imagine it would be the same in the US & all over the western world.
Million dollar question is will China wait till it is ready are go before we are? Hitler flipped that coin and very nearly pulled it off in 1939. There is a good book the Terrorist Trail I read years ago, the Norks have been in the ME teaching Hezbollah how to build tunnels for decades no, Chinese proxies no doubt have been there for decades as well.
Anyway will next check in tonight after the polls close.
Not finished it yet but Megan Kelly interview with Ben Shapiro from 3 days ago is worth a listen. He had returned from Israel the day before the attack.
However Megan did make a classic mistake. Initially in her intro she said 40 babies killed with some decapitated. Then a few minutes later she said 40 decapitated. Now don’t jump on me as either way is just staggering in its barbarity. However you do see apologists picking up on points like this to try to affect credibility. I just thought it was an uncharacteristic slip up as it was so obvious.
Either way Megan is always good and I probably listen to her more than any other US podcasters.
One thing I am seeing different versions of is regarding Hamas using $100m EU provided water pipes to make missiles from. Only noticed this story in recent days. Not sure when it actually happened. Does anybody know of a good article about this. It does, if true, serve to well illustrate the mind of Hamas in being more concerned about hating Jews than loving its own people.
Chris Mitchell has a very good Inquirer background article about Hamas up at the Oz. His daughter works in Tel Aviv.
Another interesting aspect of what is happening regards some who were fairly well known in the anti Vax / Freedom movement are now clearly pro Hamas. A few people might need to think a bit more about affiliations as getting complicated.
Good to see Avi Yimini on the ground in Israel and hopefully will shame the mainstream media journalists including the ABC guy who is already facing criticism from other journalists.
The king knows Israel treats Jordan as an essential buffer, and will always save his country from being overrun by Syria, Iraq or Iran, and especially by any Palestinian faction. That leaves Jordan safe to join wars against Israel, but only as a minor also-ran.
Chris Kenny, at the Oz.
No one else holds a candle to the USN.
And at least 2 subs…
USS Bataan and USS Carter Hall with the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit embarked should be in the area tomorrow as well.
There comes time in existential or big wars when a nation has to get serious. Examples are the nuking of Japan or the expulsion of Germans from European countries after WW2. The deaths of ‘innocent’ enemy civilians take a back seat to needs of the citizens of the home nation.
Israel is at that point now. The cycle of violence i.e. Hamas attacks, Israel responds until a ceasefire is reached, just escalated to the point where it is no longer bearable. Hamas will be destroyed and Gaza will be occupied by the IDF. Israel has had enough.
Blinken (you’ll miss him) had a chat with Abbas yesterday…in Jordan. Ramallah may not be an entirely healthy place for either of them right now. Appears there’s been a fair bit of low grade fighting in the PA areas, between various jihadis, the IDF and settlers. Which suggests Abbas is going to stay in Amman for a nice WEB for a while, since the Hamas supporters in those areas probably don’t like him very much.
Bruce of Newcastle
Oct 14, 2023 12:21 PM
Vlad is suffering a terrible wedgie at the moment. He’s desperate for the arms he’s getting from Iran but also is being confronted by the sizeable number of Russian Jews who died at the hands of Hamas, who’re Iran’s clients.
On the other hand Z has been trying to buy in on the Israeli side but is getting zero traction. Go away annoying person! Maybe he shouldn’t’ve been so critical about Israel. Those Azov guys probably aren’t helpful either.
Yes, Vlad is between a rock and hard place at the moment and is definitely wedged. I’m not sure I would say he was ‘desperate’ for Iranian arms but I get your overall point. The Iranians provided the Shahed drone which proved very useful but Russia promptly reverse engineered it and then improved the payload and range. Now (allegedly), the new version is being produced at the rate of several thousand a month at a factory near Alabuga.
Very recently I made enquiries with assorted friends seeking their response to Hamas actions. (Mrs Speedbox will follow up the family side). Have only one response this morning from a friend in Moscow which can be summed up in one word: appalled.
This person is not Jewish but is appalled at the brutality and thinks Israel should “wipe them out” and “they are terrorists – f*ck them”.
This is interesting because it is a ‘human’ response and doesn’t take in geo-politics, which Vlad must do. To be honest, I expect all family/friends will express similar sentiments but that may also demonstrate the potential for a minor disconnect between Vlad and his people. Whether that becomes a serious issue remains to be seen especially given the significant proportion of Russians with Jewish heritage. (there are also many Russian Jews living in Israel).
As for Zelensky, his wish to travel to Israel is entirely self-serving. Israel has tried, and largely succeeded, in taking a neutral stance on Russia/Ukraine. Russia has been annoyed that Israel sided with Ukraine; that some US weapons were sent via Israel to Ukraine; and, that Israel is sending non-lethal aid to Ukraine, but generally, the two nations remain on reasonable terms albeit things are somewhat strained.
If Israel invite Zelensky, it will degenerate into the Zelensky show as he amplifies his Jewish heritage and draws comparisons between Hamas and Russia. Yes, he has already done so, but to do it on Israeli soil when Israel are trying to be as neutral as reasonably possible, will be very inflammatory – and Israel knows this. It should only be considered if Israel has had a change of heart about their relationship with Russia because the Russian government will not take kindly to it. Further, Israel has other considerations about Russia (ie. Syria) so it’s not as straight forward as it may seem. Ditto Russia/Iran.
This is a very fine geo-politic balancing act for both Russia and Israel. Meanwhile, Israel are entirely justified to wipe Hamas off the map. Of course, the other element is China who have been keen to ramp up their influence in the ME. Interestingly, the Chinese public reaction to the ME (generally), Muslims and Palestine blows hot and cold. The Chinese government remarks on the Hamas attack have virtually mirrored Russia in blandness. As Israel rolls into Gaza, I think this will get very interesting from a geo-politic perspective, and especially with China.
Just when things were tricky enough…… (sigh)
(Sorry for the long post)
Israel should offer peace at their current borders. Anyone who doesn’t like this risks total and permanent annexation, as well as an uncompromising right to marque and reprisals against agitators and enablers.
In light of recent years, Gaza might be enough (hopefully) and they might just be doing that now, or at least be in the process of destroying Hamas and containing Gaza completely. Ultimately it might mean the Sinai, Lebanon and all of Palestine are annexed into Israel. Objectively Arab Israelis are better off than Palestinians. Those who start aggressive wars deserve punishment including annexation.
There is nothing at all immoral about such a policy. The disincentive effect would be strong.
Don’t be, Speedy, it was interesting. I’d add that Russia has a geopolitically important interest in Syria as well, both because of the port access and the forces they have there. Russia has wanted a port in the Med for a very very long time!
I suspect from stuff I’ve read that Russia is getting more than drones from the Iranians. The Iranians have tended to manufacture arms based on Soviet and Chinese blueprints, like those Silkworm knock offs that were used to attack USS Mason. That would then represent a neat match with Russian equipment, especially artillery ammunition if they produce it.
Vlad’s probably said enough to keep both sides from being too unhappy about Russia’s position, and likewise both sides have a strong interest not to stir up the bear, for their own reasons.
Gaza is not “occupied” by Israel otherwise the Israelis wouldn’t be planning to invade.
The “Colonialists” are Hamas, they have spent decades colonising Palestinian homes and minds. They do this to source “victimhood “, victimhood give them Power and Money.
As someone said earlier
“Unless they can be exploited, they have no value.” Palestinians are valuable to Hamas and its fellow beings, enablers and financiers because they can be exploited.
Peace would prevent this exploitation, now why would Hamas want that!
When you’re building/have built an extensive tunnel system under a metropolis … where do you put the spoil?
DAILY MAIL COMMENT: World holds its breath for Israel’s revenge
By DAILY MAIL COMMENT
After a week of bestial carnage and bloody reprisal, the world holds its breath for the next deadly phase of Israel’s new all-out war against Hamas.
Enraged by the pitiless massacre of 1,300 of its civilians, Israel has laid siege to the terrorists’ base in the Gaza Strip, blocking supplies of food, water and fuel.
Yesterday, the Jewish state warned all non-combatants to leave northern Gaza, where Hamas is concentrated, in anticipation of a full ground invasion.
Meanwhile, scattered around the 140 square-mile enclave under armed guard are some 100 terrified hostages, whose lives hang by a thread.
Israel says it will not lift the siege or stop rocket attacks until they are released. Hamas says it will start executing them in retaliation for air strikes that kill civilians.
Given the level of depravity shown by Hamas in last Saturday’s lightning attacks – babies slaughtered, women raped then shot, some victims reportedly beheaded –
there is no room for negotiation.
As it has before, Israel will meet fire with fire. Its people are in no doubt that this is a fight they must win. A fight against unalloyed evil. A fight for survival.
Once again, the Middle East stares into the abyss and the sense of foreboding is palpable.
But this was also a week where we learned things about ourselves.
The speed and sincerity with which Rishi Sunak condemned Hamas as terrorists and offered Britain’s support to Israel was welcomed not just by the Jewish community but by the vast majority of this country.
His forthrightness contrasted starkly with the craven Football Association, which refused to show solidarity by lighting up the Wembley arch in Israel’s colours for fear of a ‘backlash’.
Instead, it issued a trite statement deploring violence on all sides, as if there were some sort of equivalence between Hamas and the democratically elected Israeli government.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Israel-Palestine conflict, the atrocities committed by Hamas were simply beyond the pale of civilised behaviour.
Civilians are often collateral casualties of war, but this was deliberate, cold-blooded butchery, which no compassionate human being should ever condone or excuse.
Yet sadly, for some in our country, mainly anti-Semites on the Left and pro-Palestine Islamists, it was cause for jubilation. They were literally dancing in the streets in celebration of mass murder.
Vile anti-Jewish slogans shouted by protesters at the Israeli embassy in London. Palestinian supporters tearing down posters of kidnapped babies in London’s Oxford Street and Mornington Crescent. Jewish businesses vandalised and schools closing for fear of harassment.
In universities, too, once bastions of tolerance and true diversity, anti-Semitism seems sadly to be alive and growing.
This is a free country, in which people are allowed to demonstrate and express their beliefs. It is not illegal to criticise Israel or its policies, or indeed to support the creation of a Palestinian state.
But when such beliefs bleed into bigotry, hatred and intimidation they shatter all conceptions of decency. They are also against the law and those espousing them should face arrest and trial.
Equally, Israel has every right to defend its people and its borders against an implacable and murderous enemy.
But in their understandable urge to destroy Hamas they should also show a degree of restraint and do everything possible to minimise civilian casualties.
They have the sympathy of many millions around the world. Hamas will have no qualms about putting women and children in harm’s way to shift that perception.
If Israel is too indiscriminate in its vengeance, it risks falling into their trap.
some dead hostages retrieved from Gaza.
Any building site should do… and there was a lot of building in Gaza.
Obviously its an immediate ‘tell’ and top of mind to tunnellers. I remember ‘The Wooden Horse’ escapers in WW2 were trickling it out of trouser leg pockets all over the exercise area.
Muddy – if you look at some of the photos it is obvious that Gaza has been building tower blocks like crazy. Massive amounts of excavation just to do the foundations in the sandy soil. It would be a cinch to incorporate a nice hardened basement in every new block. The amazing thing is how stylish and grand the construction is for a bunch of isolated militants. There’s a lot of money flowing into Gaza from somewhere, and something is being used to pay for the enormous amount of concrete and building materials. I suspect zakat.
Same as in German universities in the 1930s. A single example below.
From Wiki:
From another thread:
Bruce of Newcastle
Oct 14, 2023 3:54 PM
Vlad’s probably said enough to keep both sides from being too unhappy about Russia’s position, and likewise both sides have a strong interest not to stir up the bear, for their own reasons.
Yes, agree with that. My personal view is that he could have been stronger in the public condemnation of the wanton bloodshed without cutting too deep into the geo-politics but then, I’m not sitting in the Kremlin. I also don’t know what ‘private’ messages have been sent (if any) – but we both know that governments often converse with each other through non-official channels.
We live in interesting times.
dover0beach
Oct 14, 2023 5:06 PM
Wow. Directly over the target.
Gazans have been given an extension of time to get out.
4 pm today.
Security tightened at Australian army bases.
Soldiers rather than civilian contractors on guard duty.
Ready to shout BANG if attacked.
If it was a bushfire, flood or tsunami they’d get out fast without a fuss.
When critics of Israel spew the usual unfounded simplistic slanders and insist they’re not antisemitic, ask them what a real antisemite would claim about Israel. Ask them to demonstrate they can recognise the difference between legitimate criticsm and antisemitic slander. They never can answer.
hamas taunting Israel with footage of their baby hostages.
Heard an interesting thing today over a podcast. Hamarse is a very factionalized group and most don’t like nor trust one another. The reason why Israel may not have heard the chatter, and we should be mindful that Israeli intel has “mics” all over the place, may be because the massacre could have been organized by an entirely new faction others weren’t even aware of existed.
The Israeli Defence Forces said they have killed Hamas’s Ali Qadi. They said Qadi – who was among the Palestinians released in a hostage exchange for the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit – led an attack on Israel last weekend.
Off topic I know, but I’m remembering a certain A.D.F. establishment where the guards on tha gate were armed for whatever reason. Some POGO pulled up, and made the claim that “I’ll bet that thing isn’t loaded!” The oke on the gate took off the magazine, and showed him the live rounds….
There might well be an interesting “twist” here, JC.
The population of Israel is 9 million (7 million Jewish, 2 million Arab). The population of Gaza is about 2 million. Hamas hasn’t held an election since being “elected” well over a decade ago. They are the minority.
It seems to me that Israel is united after this atrocious barbarism (including the Arab population). They don’t want this shit happening. If the Arab population were unhappy living in Israel, they would have left ages ago. Easy enough to walk straight back over the border and live in Gaza. No one would have stopped them.
I’m sensing that a solution to “the problem” is afoot. Hamas (ISIS) needs to go, good Governance needs to be restored.
What’s happening now, will be the final battle.
Just like “The Voice” referendum, the people themselves want something completely different to what the political elites and the nutters want. Tribalism has its boundaries.
Activists are the greatest threat to civilisation that we have ever seen.
They have infected the minds of educators, media and politicians. Every single facet of society. Up is down, black is white. It’s an industry.
70 fleeing killed, it’s either a hamas misfire a targeted killing or an Israeli misfire,
I didn’t consider a deliberate attack by hamas, quite possible as well.
Deliberate attack by Hamas is very likely. The usual ploy is to set up video of ambulances outside hospitals, people running with children into hospital, ten men carrying one stretcher with a casualty on it. We recall all the tricks used in Lebanon.
The MSM fall for it every time.
Cue Flat Fatima in front of various scenes of destruction.
Iran issuing threats
I thought last night of the surviving hostages – has there been any proof-of-life yet? – and what they must be enduring after seven days of captivity. The psychological trauma alone must be significant.
Saw more war casualties in 24 hours than the previous two years.
And we are not being manipulated??????????
Yes, by Hamas.
Yes, hamas taunting Israel with images of terrorists playing with little boys and babies.
Sickening.
If just one comes home safely I would be surprised and delighted.
I’m inclined to say most images coming out of gaza are palliwood.
Iran’s foreign minister has just completed a tour of Iraq, Syria & Lebanon, warning of “a huge earthquake in the Zionist entity” if it proceeds with operations in Gaza.
If Israel apparently holding back is a psyop intended to unbalance Hamas, force them to do self destuctive things and to expose their backers, it is working.
But if that is the plan it is very high risk brinksmanship and leaves space for the UN and BBC Marxists to drum up anti Israeli pressure.
I saw a commentary that claimed that Israel seeks to goad Hezbollah and Iran in order to lock-in US commitment. Fantasy stuff.
I don’t know, maybe Israel is sincere in holding back to minimise loss of life in Gaza.
A ‘big earthquake’ in Israel won’t stop abruptly on the West Bank and Gaza borders.
I don’t suppose Iran much cares about that though.
Watched an interesting interview last night with a fellow previously involved in Israeli hostage negotiations with Hamas.
He’s using his back channels to speak to Hamas but the response isn’t good – they now realise they’ve miscalculated but it’s too late to turn back.
Do you have a link Roger?
Let’s see…this should be it.
He’s not a fan of Netanyahu, btw, but that’s beside the point for now.
Earlier, I commented that I didn’t think other Arab nations would enter into a hot war with Israel over Gaza. But that didn’t include Iran.
If Hamas choose to do the unspeakable with those Israeli hostages, Israel may well just go hard after Iran , inside her borders. Really hard. I’m sure in some way that has already been conveyed. The setup now looks extremely ugly.
What did hamas think was going to happen?
Thank’s Roger.
Gosh, this doesn’t sound good. Hamas seem resigned to a suicidal end.
Gershon makes the mistake of equating the Israeli government (a democratic government), with the venally corrupt PA (under President for Life Mahmoud Abbas) and Homicidal Hamas in Gaza.
There is no equivalence. Gershon is an old peacenik, and quite frankly such people are a menace to peace.
And you know what, I can see it in Gershon’s eyes, he knows that “peace now” is a furphy, a mirage, and actually has been since Oslo.
Roger, I listened to a podcast the other day. The dude reckons there’s a lot of freelancing inside Hamarse, and the factions don’t trust one another. It’s quite conceivable, he suggested, that Israeli Intel didn’t pick up the chatter because a new faction sprung up that they weren’t aware of.
It’s possible if you think of Hamarse as the cartel situation going on in Mexico. There’s often a new, much bloodthirstier cartel that tries to muscle in killing off the old gang.
It’s quite possible the current Hamarse leadership didn’t know what was going on in the undergrowth, especially with Israeli intel not knowing.
Indeed. He comes across as a genuine neutral who is doing practical works to find peace. What a task in that neighborhood. But his message is awful. He’s fearing the worst.
“He comes across as a genuine neutral who is doing practical works to find peace. “
No, he’s not neutral. Anyone that equates a democratically elected government with Hamas in Gaza or the PA is NOT neutral.
Which is largely why Hamas’ senior leadership have been sitting in Qatar since before the 7th. They knew better.
Hamas have tried hard to convince themselves that their actions will take them to jannah but in their hearts they know slaughtering the innocent is always evil.
What a treacherous religion islam is.
Cassie is right, a big difference between a dictatorship and a democratically elected government.
From what I heard, he wasn’t doing that but I accept your point cassie. I think he was trying to make the point that in Gaza there is a lot of opposition or hatred of the Hamas overlords. That’s what I know too from Pali colleagues of years gone by. Both moslem and Christians.
In any case I was much more interested in the feedback he said he was getting from his Hamas contacts. Which sounded like no solution. I hope he is proven wrong.
Hamas is very factional.
Seems one or two factions may have gone too far in what was meant to be a hostage taking operation to free the thousands of members in Israeli prisons.
Gershon Baskin has long been known as an advocate for left-wing and Palestinian cause. But even he now knows that Hamas has overreached, even he is shocked by what happened in Southern Israel last week, and he knows Israel is about to wipe Hamas off the face of the earth. I watched the piece linked above, and Baskin said some worthwhile things but seriously, but to equate the Israeli government with Hamas.
Seriously. As Rosie says about, what did Hamas think would happen?
He’s a peacenik, for sure.
Set aside his political opinions and focus on what he says about Hamas as he has direct contacts within the organisation.
“I think he was trying to make the point that in Gaza there is a lot of opposition or hatred of the Hamas overlords.”
Maybe/maybe not. Personally, I don’t think there is.
We shouldn’t discount the possibility they were on meth or some variant the Nazis used going into battle. Apparently it’s a big time drug in the Mid East.
“Set aside his political opinions and focus on what he says about Hamas as he has direct contacts within the organisation.”
I did, and please don’t patronise me. Most of his contacts are through the Qataris.
It wouldn’t surprise me, but I’m loathe to make excuses for them (not that you were).
Whatever they believe is not a religion but a death cult.
The massacre in Southern Israel last week, on Shabbat morning, was done with the full authority of the Hamas leadership.
Someone is against calling Hamas a death cult?
OK.
Maybe you should explain yourself.
Is there a possibility that the murderous animals , on their own, lost it in a blood lust? Went berserk, amok, a frenzy – to become martyrs? Leaving the Hamas leadership no room but to back them up. Arabs can be senselessly volatile, I’ve seen it myself but without weapons. It’s speculation but Hamas has authored their death warrant here, knowing Israel’s revenge will be terrible.
Murderous unspeakable violence of masses does occur, it happened in ’65 in Indonesia when the Indons went after the Chinese. An utter bloodbath – women kids , children hacked to death with machetes. Thousands dead. A frenzy that ran it’s course, but unstoppable while in progress.
Disliking Hamas doesn’t change the likelihood that most Gazans dislike Israel, dislike Jews and have no interest in living in peace with Jewish neighbours.
It’s not just hamas, it’s islam.
The evidence says otherwise.
Documents Collected Show Hamas INTENTIONALLY Targeted Elementary Schools and a Youth Center During Attack – And A Dance Concert
Fair enough Z. Thanks.
Went amok?
You think they attacked civilian settlements with some other intention other than to rape, kill and take hostages?
They took amphetamines to make it easier, that’s all.
They certainly aren’t unique, it’s happened countless times throughout history.
Re the music festival, Hamas has said their operations in the area were directed against the IDF and local Gazans carried out the atrocities. To my mind that’s an even more horrifying prospect than that Hamas were responsible. They can’t plausibly claim that re the raids on the kibbutzim though, as the plans have been discovered by the IDF.
Most likely self selected sociopaths.
I’m sure I read something during the Yugoslav wars the about there always being a percentage of so inclined people who are normally shackled by civilisation but when normality breaks down, they unleash.
This is a very good history lesson of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict…
Free Palestine? No thanks! (The Israeli perspective you’ve probably never heard.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNf40sBcvKk&t=1160s
That’s at the heart of it and it presents us (Western countries with Muslim minorities) with a challenge I’m not sure we understand yet, not least because so many of us have lost our own religion and along with that a knowledge of how it has informed the society we have inherited from previous generations.
Local gazans got out their powered paragliders?
I suppose there was plenty of time and opportunity for those so inclined to use the border breaches.
I saw mention of looting as well as raping at the festival.
It doesn’t help when they’re fed historical grievances along with mother’s milk.
Exactly Roger, that’s the fantastic islam sociopath combo.
with bonus cousin marriage to mar the intellect.
If that were true, and it isn’t, it would make their claims of innocent Gazan deaths in the airstrikes ring even more hollow.
I saw plenty of videos of those supposed civilians spitting on Israeli corpses, looting Israeli cars, homes and bodies, pushing tied up Israeli hostages into Gaza. Not to mention their “victory” celebrations both in Israel (while they could) and on the streets of Gaza. But I didn’t see them armed to the teeth murdering civilians with AKs while mugging for the cameras, tossing grenades into family safe rooms, or shooting up civilian cars.
So nah. Not even a nice try.
Given that they’re so far removed from the morality of ordinary Australians, I’m expecting the ALP will suggest bringing Palestinian refugees here before this is all over.
God help us.
Made all the more volatile by a lifestyle based on almost no sleep, with gallons of caffeine and tons of nicotine.
Thanks for the link cassie.
Cass, I find it hard to believe Israeli intel didn’t know about this. Israeli intel has these arseholes by the short and curlies. They’d have senior hamarse on the payroll. How this broke down is anyone’s guess.
I have seen two separate interviews with captured HAMAS terrorists and both said their objective was to kill, to take prisoners, to defile. What do you mean by that – to rape. And why did you take the babies and children? To defile.
It is a massive psyop to spread terror and despair. They wanted Israel to react and spoil the Arab peace talks, which happened. They thought Israel was to distracted by internal issues and the USA was too weak to provide back up or support.
They miscalculated the level of revulsion their videos would incur amongst good people. Perhaps the videos were designed to encourage another Arab uprising, who knows, they miscalculated that countries that have gotten rid of HAMAS or the brotherhood (same thing) don’t actually want them back.
And speaking of dreamy guys – this one has all my attention. He is warm and strong and full of courage. A real lion.
Let me repharse. I find it hard to hard to understand how Israeli intel didn’t find out about this, unless there was an entirely new operation in the organizational rabble
JC, I liken it to a GPS in the car, in time you forget how to navigate. Israel believed too much in their state of the art security systems. I would like to know how their fence system was breeched. I would not be surprised if there was inside action there. Some of the farm people recognised workers that had been coming in to work on their farms as amongst the terrorists.
Roger
That’s JC, Roger. He’s arguing that it wasn’t Hamas that led the baby throat cutting, Child captive killing, Israeli women raping lunatics. No he’s saying it must have been an offshoot/splinter faction who were the bad boys. And that they were on drugs – just like the real Nazis.
You are such a weasel, JC. Simply a bloody weasel.
Crawl back into your burrow, Bignose. You’ve been damned by your words.
Yes, or a sub group, but it couldn’t have been too small as they were able to field over 1500 on the day. In any case, there were failures on the fence system as well. No warnings went out, and it is sensitive enough that a pigeon will set it off. I suspect someone switched it off.
Possible Helen
Look, I’d be shocked if the Israelis don’t have some of the leadership on the payroll. The factions despise one another. The fence wasn’t protected in any way, mainly because there was no intel about a strike (obviously). To me, breaching the fence is secondary to the fact that they had zero knowledge. That to me it suggests something else occurred away from leadership otherwise it would be spilled.
But it was obvious, wasn’t it? The videos so slick, guys with proper uniforms amongst them, right from the start I thought this reminds me of ISIS. Not that HAMAS are not foul creatures, they are, but there was something different, more polished, more professional about this.
Time will tell.
JC, there is such a thing as having too much intel and you have to guess what is wheat and what is chaff. You can bet Hamas has been flooding the intel channels with false reports or misleading clues for months.
Somebody has to make the call, and in this case they obviously credited the wrong information. I can’t imagine how they feel abut that now.
The fence is never off, JC. This time, it did not work.
Turtlerhead.
I’m not saying that in the least and you need to do two things.
1. Stop messing around with the ticks, because we know it’s you and
2. Read what I said or stop lying.
I was suggesting that an new faction came up through the ranks. I don’t know how you could construe that as a controversial statement other than the fact that you’re on iodine.
You also need to apologize for the bullshit nonsense you were suggesting of possible massive cheating, which then became a 60/40 prediction. You asshat.
Helen, they used drones to drop explosives on individual sensors on the fence line. They had plenty of time to study and target plan them beforehand.
On the Israeli side all the people who were monitoring the sensors saw were technical problems taking out their cameras and such, not enemy action. It happened very quickly and being short-staffed for the holiday they didn’t have the time and resources to get it right in time.
JC
Oct 15, 2023 3:03 PM
Cassie of Sydney
Yep – now it’s blaming the Israelis for not knowing about the attacks. Bloody Hell, JC. Now tell us about the ‘splinter group’ that raised an army of thousands, launched 5,000 rockets, and managed to get their hands on hundreds of vehicles to smash the walls down.
I’ve always suspected you were a gutless weasel, but pushing the line that Hamas is the innocent party here? Piss off.
Israel relies on a fence for it’s border security? Surely there must be more- aerial surveillance, satellite (with US assist) etc.
Yes, there is a fence line between Gaza and Israel.
Any military engineer or infantryman can tell you that a barrier without a means to observe it is a waste of effort and materials and a mental trap if you put faith in it.
The sensors which observe that fence line in the breach areas were taken out in a well planned and executed operation which took mere minutes to execute. Next come the vehicles roaring through. All in 10 minutes or so at worst.
The Israelis were very short staffed, which is why the IDF outposts got overrun so quickly and easily. The had let their guard down quite a bit for the religious holiday.
I can’t see how anyone could interpret what JC said as claiming hamas as innocent.
Incidentally what’s with the bignose slur? Are you alluding to JC’s Semitic heritage?
I think there is general agreement that Israeli intelligence failed, the proof of that being well over a thousand slaughtered and over a hundred taken captive.
Absolutely there should be some soul searching in their intelligence community.
Yet muslims loves to attack on Jewish religious holidays.
JC
Oct 15, 2023 3:21 PM
Turtlerhead.
It’s precisely what you’re saying, Bignose.
It’s not me doing the interfering with the downticks, and your repeated accusations seem to me that you’re responsible.
2
I quoted what you said. Therefor it isn’t a lie.
You also suggested it was a splinter group – not Hamas. You were giving the leadership a pass, idiot.
Yes POSSIBLE cheating. Are you suggesting a statement of a possibility is equivalent to a FACT?
The iodine joke wore out months ago, dickhead. It was only funny the first couple of times. Now it’s been repeated well over a hundred times, it’s kind of lost its punch, hasn’t it? You and Sanchette are like a ten year old kids who continue telling the same joke thinking it gets a laugh each time, and are utterly unaware that the laughter is at you – not with you.
You can’t build & move 5000 rockets without someone seeing something.
Mossad & co will have some questions to answer over the next 6 months.
More important to focus on Hamas for now.
hamas setting up roadblocks to prevent Gazans leaving
what al jiza sees fit to publish
rosie:
Oct 15, 2023 3:38 PM
It’s due to the fact that JC has a big nose. I have no knowledge of his heritage, whatever it is, nor of his hair colour, IQ, or underpants size.
I have supported Israels existence and it’s existential battle against Islam damn near all my life. I’ve donated money to multiple Jewish causes, and have a brother in law who is Jewish and is one of the finest men I have ever met.
Do not play the anti semitic card with me rosie
It happens. Before the 1983 Hezbollah suicide bombing of the Beirut airport the Marines there were receiving 30+ vehicle bomb warnings from intel per morning at their briefings. “Yellow taxicab plate number 12345”, “Same but 54321”, “Green Truck”, etc., etc, etc..
Lots of intel, not much of it clear and useful. You can’t shoot up every vehicle that matches those threat warnings before they attack.
Try sitting at a crowded intersection and sorting moving vehicles for threats with nothing but your eyeballs and notebook. Unsurprisingly, one eventually got through. Two actually, one hit the Marines, one the French Paratroops.
Failure? Yes. But there are limitations to all intel ops.
That makes some sense, Zatara, except cameras are just one point of the system, there are also very very sensitive sensors. They were down, too or went down under cover of the cameras being targetted. My gut says insider.
Good piece here on history
Pretty sure all of the Israeli security agencies would be having a good hard look at themselves & their processes.
I don’t know anything about the size of JC’s nose.
I do know there is a long history of anti Semitism involving slurs about big noses.
Well done you for choosing to use to use one on this particular thread.
Insider as in Israeli Jewish?
I find that very hard to believe.
Maybe just credit hamas with two years of seeking to find a weakness, perfecting their timing and successfully doing exploiting that weakness.
One more comment and I’ll shut up.
As disgusting as the 7 Oct attack was, one can’t honestly say that it wasn’t well planned and executed on the tactical level.
As someone far smarter than I once said:
Perhaps the reptiles upped their counterintel which squeezed existing humint sources? Given the apparent sophistication of planning, you’d think that counterintel and deception (as Zatara mentioned above) could have been part of the equation. The number of rockets is an interesting logistical question.
I think your intimation regarding the Robert – J.C. feud is a stretch, Rosie.
Being the low-IQ defaming moron you’ve always been, I guess you’re reading my comment, as Hamarse isn’t responsible. There’s no real point in arguing otherwise, because there’s no point ever attempting a conversation with you because you’re stupid and appear to have mental issues.
It kind of looks like you, as the pattern appears to suggest it is you and one other. Anyway, hopefully we’ll soon find out. 🙂
A splinter group doesn’t give Hamarse a pass in the least, you defaming low-IQ dickhead. Hamarse is responsible for all the historical Jew hatred they’ve created, starting when kids started school. That makes them as culpable as the murderers, period.
In one of your iodine addled conspiracy brain farts, you suggested they could steal 90% of the vote. That sounds like you were asserting a high probability rather than a possibility, you laughable clown. From there, you then went to 60/40, yes, majority. You’re a clown with a low IQ.
Neither the joke nor the iodine are past their use-by date. It will never get old, and you’re the last one to be telling us it’s getting old.
No, it hasn’t.
Tell me if I’m being hurtful and making you cry, and I’ll stop. Only then.
Sometimes things just go wrong, cascading like dominoes. A missed message here, a misinterpreted sign there. Think Pearl Harbour.
The “success” of Hamas, in any of its entities, will be relatively short lived, although the cost might be more than we can seriously contemplate now without shuddering.
To paraphrase, they have woken the lion yet again, and this time his resolve will be relentless.
Whatever you say Muddy.
Bignose had connotations that most people are very aware of.
Why would that be Muddy? He lying about not knowing my heritage, and he’s the equivalent of a blog grifter, with nothing to say other than making up hyperbolic crap that embarrasses the blog. The bignose comment is exactly to denigrate my heritage.
Someone posted all my details once to dox me and I’ve never hidden my heritage from here. I presume you’ve seen the frequent denigrating comments like being called dago and wog etc. from Driller, Wodney and the Aviator.
This worthless slob virtually lives on the blog and he reads every single post as he adds stupid hyperbolic comments to everyone.
Suddenly, Turtlehead develops Jewish kinship too. Totally credible.
Try harder.
Perla Harbour was a very long time ago.
Key words spoken can trigger the NSA to listen to any conversation in the world or break in and read any email- even those purporting to be coded for secrecy.
I’d be optimistic that Israeli intel would have this ability or sharing it. Former Israeli intel guys have started very successful software companies and Tel Aviv is a mini Silicon Valley.
They would also have human intel throughout the neighboring countries like nothing else.There’s no doubt in my mind they have paid human intel within the senior ranks of Hamarse. Yet this one got through.
Just an example.
In 2016 or so, the NSA broke into a large Swiss bank’s system, retrieved all the information about foreign bank account holders and passed them onto the Dutch and Germans.
Word around the traps:
– IDF have now ostensibly delayed any ground invasion of Gaza until the weather improves, Hersh reporting, however that IDF planners worried about the quality of their infantry (largely conscript) and that the plan largely involves besieging Gaza, leveling it, and then using the infantry to mop up whatever resistance is left;
– there is a developing consensus across the region that Israel is not just planning to ‘mow the lawn’ but is preparing to plough the field;
– Iran issues an ultimatum to Israel re Gazan operation, Macron warns Iran; Iran’s FM meets with leaders in Qatar, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and leader of Hezbollah;
– Turkish FM meets with Egyptian counterpart, joint statement against “collective punishment” of Gazans;
– IDF strikes targets in Syria a second time with intel indicating “strategic weapons” being transferred from Iran;
– CSG Ford now steaming to East Med from East Coast of US;
– more activity in the north involving Hezbollah (they release video of strikes in Shebaa Farms); and
– increasing policing actions and tensions in the West Bank.
Guys, seriously, is there a thread you can’t pursue this ridiculous blood feud in?
How do you break an operation that may have involved words spoken face to face to people that you have known and trusted for years?
It would be appreciated if we could keep this thread clear for info like Dover’s above. Thanks.
Sorry. I posted before I saw the boss’s message.
For an operation this big their must have been some phone, text or emails. Perhaps that was language coded?
Israel has human sources within the factions.
I’m trying to figure out how this succeeded.
(By the way Muddy, again, nice of you to be taking sides again like some disinterested little observer with a faulty scale in one hand).
IDF have now ostensibly delayed any ground invasion of Gaza until the weather improves, Hersh reporting, however that IDF planners worried about the quality of their infantry (largely conscript) and that the plan largely involves besieging Gaza, leveling it, and then using the infantry to mop up whatever resistance is left;
Why would Israel do the expected?
It’s not about territory.
It’s about hostages & high value Hamas leadership (turning them into red goo that is).
Hello.
JC
Oct 15, 2023 5:45 PM
(By the way Muddy, again, nice of you to be taking sides again like some disinterested little observer with a faulty scale in one hand).
Sun Tzu.
Sorry Muddy but he’s probably scribbled down your name in his book labelled “Death to the Deniers of My Greatness”, by J.C.
🙂
Hard to say, you could probably minimize the former, and use the latter for coordination when absolutely necessary. The fact is they did it and Mossad hadn’t heard anything about it.
Yes, which is why I’ve been speculating if a new faction started.
dover, there is no way they could have dug up 5-6k of water pipes, manufactured 5000 rockets & distributed them without some form of footprint.
Any new Hamas faction wouldn’t have been able to do that without the in situ Hamas knowing about it.
They operate like the Jersey mob.
They all keep an eye on each other.
Not necessarily. There are more people than Jewish in Israel. They did arrest an Israeli yesterday for pro Gaza activities. Israel would have sleepers in it like every country does.
Dover I read a few days ago in this week that seems a year long already that yes, there was electronic silence, everything on paper or face to face. I understand that. It is the sensors on the fence I cannot reconcile.
What Hamas Was Really Out To Do
Interesting read on the attack. Certainly some truths to it, until you come to the part where Hamas thought they could hold the ground and annex it. Personally, I stick to the idea that this always was a raid, an attack of limited objectives with a planned withdrawal.
An intelligence failure does not equal a conspiracy theory.
If this was just about the hostages and leadership they would just be using their intelligence assets in Gaza to find them and extract them and their special forces to take them out.
Personally, I stick to the idea that this always was a raid, an attack of limited objectives with a planned withdrawal.
Agree.
Zero chance of holding any of the ground once the IDF mobilised.
A raid by low & maybe a few mid tier Hamas.
With all the big wigs well out of the way.
My understanding was that the donated pipes were never installed, although they did disappear underground into basement workshops where they became the bodies of rockets that wouldn’t see the light of day until they were fired.
As these are unguided rockets they only had three major components, body, propellant, and warhead. Of those the only question is where the propellant and warheads came from? It would be interesting then to track industrial imports other than pipes.
to find them and extract them and their special forces to take them out.
They are already doing that.
Some reported, some not.
Sure, but what about the principal part of the operation? It is very likely they thought this operation might have involved nothing more than rocket launches but not also
the breaching of the border fence in multiple locations, overrunning military outposts in the vicinity, and then razing the local inhabitants.
That might account for the delay of the ground attack. The Commandos recovered 250 hostages in a raid on Sufa the other day, but that was in Israeli territory in the far south. So maybe they are developing intel on hostage locations in Gaza proper and have had enough success to hold off the ground attack for a little while they stir the populace around with evac orders to see what pops up.
Alas, the senior Hamas leadership are in Qatar and much harder to hit.
Bottom line, there was a f*ck ton of supplies getting moved around, put together & distributed.
They will, however, be looking over their shoulders for the rest of their lives.
Shaping up for an Israel/Iran hot war.
Zatara:
In the video made by Hamas showing how they made the missiles there was a segment of machined parts being filled with molten explosive. They would be very easy to make and then attach to the 6″? pipe with araldite type glue. I doubt they’re worried about failure rate or quality control.
obviously hamas had some time on their hands
article on threats coming from elsewhere
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/10/minnesota-woman-who-advocated-palestinian-rights-protested-against/
Stupid people who don’t realise that you can’t be ‘friends’ with Islam. They just regard fools like these as political statements not yet made.
I’ve known Fly since about 2005. I had dinner with him in NYC around 2007 at a steak house. Great dude and almost as a good a trader as I am. 🙂
He’s like 1/2 Italian, 1/4 Irish and 1/4 Swedish. Born and raised in Crooklyn.
True. Bern, I’m just amazed a big operation like this didn’t get out. That’s all.
There has been a singular lack of extra-territorial assassinations.
Is Bowen protecting them all in Lakemba?
Is that what Albanese’s visit to the mosque all about. We were wondering.
Omerta – it’s not just for Sicilians anymore.
But I’d think that a disinformation campaign had more to do with it than merely information security.
Flood the zone with plausible BS and make the other guy sort through it to figure out the truth. It only has to last until you accomplish your objective.
I’m just amazed a big operation like this didn’t get out. That’s all.
Same JC.
That’s why my sympathy for the residents of Gaza is limited.
They knew what was coming & did nothing.
I did note that a lot of young men leading people off seemed to be in casual clothes.
Israel proposing to shut down al Jazeera Israel bureau for endangering idf lives
Thonged sandals even.
This makes it difficult to maintain the theme “Gazan civilians are innocent & don’t deserve the IDF coming down on them like a tonne of bricks”
What exactly would the residents of Gaza have known though? If the intelligence assets on the ground had only limited info at best, none of which was effectively actionable, I’m not sure what Habib Public could have surmised by what he might have seen at any time because they were obviously concealing their activities from all the intel and surveillance assets of the Israelis, US, and other Western powers.
DB, you can not conceal the distribution of 5000 rockets in that contained area.
Someone would have seen something.
It’s not as if it’d be all that unusual to hear “Crikey I’d love to kill heaps of Jews” in conversation in Gaza & West Bank.
To put that into perspective, that’s between 400 & 500 truckloads depending on who you want to listen to.
Sure they were built & stored in basements, but they had to be moved around.
I seem to recall Hamas dragging the bodies of collaborators through the states a few years ago.
Perhaps people are disinclined to dob them in to Israel despite the incessant tunnel digging and weapons manufacturer.
If someone must have seen this how do Israeli and US intel and surveillance assets miss it? Alternatively, may be some aspect of at least this part was passed on but Israeli intel thought it just was the usual rocket attack that now and then happens, not the operation that has never happened before.
That was my understanding – anyone believed to be a collaborator, met a grisly end.
Does Iran have a ‘frogman’ capacity that we know of? It would be tedious work, and I imagine the Israeli Navy would have regular offshore patrols w/radar, but might some components of the rockets have come in via the beaches?
anyone believed to be a collaborator, met a grisly end.
Sure, it’s not without risk.
Just like Catholics in Ireland standing up to the IRA.
Considering what the Israeli response would be, it would have been better for a citizen of Gaza to dob them in.
Israel does pay for information.
You mean Protestants standing up to the Ulster Loyalists.
Imagine the sheer terror of the human intels trying to convince Israel they didn’t know.
Israel, in some consulted way, should get the word out that one of the senior hamarse duds holed up in Qatar was an informer – then let his side kill him off. It could be done It would be funny in a dark humor way.
IIRC on some occasions they necklaced them first.
The evidence bar was rather low & the investigative techniques may not have allowed for a defence to be mounted, thus nobody in their right mind would be game to be even suspected of being pro-zionist.
IIRC the treatment of homosexuals is indistinguishable from that of “Zionist spies”