Open Thread – Tues 19 July 2022


Woman on a Porch with Flowers, Robert Lewis Reid, 1906

2,131 responses to “Open Thread – Tues 19 July 2022”

1 9 10 11
  1. Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity Avatar
    Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity

    Knuckle Dragger says: July 22, 2022 at 7:03 pm

    Well he was sitting up and talking. It wasn’t that much claret – you used to get worse playing footy. I also noted the product in the (short, potentially peroxided) hair.

    Fair cop there KD.
    I felt sorta unclean even typing that bit of … er … exuberant interpretation.

    Is that the clip where toward the end it is reported that the duo stated to the court (either personally or via mouthpiece) that they’d signed up to be lifelong police officers, but were now seriously considering leaving the force?

    FMD, I’ve seen coppers give each other worse hammerings accidentally, far worse, playing football on the lawn of the police barracks.

  2. Old bloke Avatar
    Old bloke

    Boambee John says:
    July 22, 2022 at 3:26 pm

    I hope that he used spherical trigonometry, not a Mercator’s map.

    From memory (it was a while ago when I read it, and have since lost the book after loaning it to someone), Cathie dedicated a chapter in his first book to the trigonometric calculations, I can’t vouch if it’s solid mathematics or numerology as I’m not a mathematician.

  3. miltonf Avatar
    miltonf

    I find not working more stressful than working even disregarding financial considerations.

  4. Roger Avatar
    Roger

    twilight

  5. Bluey Avatar
    Bluey

    miltonfsays:
    July 22, 2022 at 7:38 pm
    From Advance Australia-
    There are at least two woke Liberals considering backing Albanese’s legislated 43 per cent emissions target – even if their party opposes it.
    Tasmanian Liberal MP Bridget Archer (an inveterate floor-crosser who helped sink religious freedom laws) and NSW Liberal senator Andrew Bragg reckon they’re open to backing Labor’s climate change lunacy

    We know Bragg is a WEF plant ofcourse.

    FFS. The party that kicked out Bernie Finn can’t boot them? And yes I know, state vs. federal etc. etc.

    Someone please tell me when we can start decorating lampposts. Please.

  6. Roger Avatar
    Roger

    I find not working more stressful than working even disregarding financial considerations.

    And that’s just fine, milton.

    Some people are like that.

  7. miltonf Avatar
    miltonf

    Different strokes for difference folks

  8. miltonf Avatar
    miltonf

    You wouldn’t piss on them if they were on fire Bluey. They really don’t like their base either or should I say former base.

  9. johanna Avatar
    johanna

    miltonf says:
    July 22, 2022 at 7:46 pm

    I find not working more stressful than working even disregarding financial considerations.

    Then, get a job.

    Having had lots of different jobs, some were stressful, some were not. The stressful ones paid better, much better. You don’t get nothing for nothing (unless you are Hunter Biden.)

  10. Bluey Avatar
    Bluey

    miltonfsays:
    July 22, 2022 at 7:53 pm
    You wouldn’t piss on them if they were on fire Bluey. They really don’t like their base either or should I say former base.

    Was talking with a mate last night who’s not particularly political, and he’s firmly on board just hanging the lot at all levels and starting over. Got to the point of talking about stuff that probably got me on another list somewhere, but given he’s a fitter and turner by trade……

    Hell, it get announced the Victorian Labor party effectively has an established culture of corrupt behavior, VICPOL straight off say they’re not even going to investigate, the PM talks about how the Vic premier is a great mate and ignores it all. There’s serious indications of corruption in what, four states now?

    About the only way I see out now is heads on pikes.

  11. miltonf Avatar
    miltonf

    Jobs seem to be chasing people atm- it’s strange with such a sick economy. Maybe it’s what Roger said.

  12. Perplexed of Brisbane Avatar
    Perplexed of Brisbane

    Old blokesays:
    July 22, 2022 at 7:46 pm
    Boambee John says:
    July 22, 2022 at 3:26 pm

    I hope that he used spherical trigonometry, not a Mercator’s map.

    From memory (it was a while ago when I read it, and have since lost the book after loaning it to someone), Cathie dedicated a chapter in his first book to the trigonometric calculations, I can’t vouch if it’s solid mathematics or numerology as I’m not a mathematician.

    Old Bloke,
    Are you referring to Bruce Cathie? I remember someone saying that he had come up with a theory that nuclear weapons could not just be detonated at will but had to be at specific points in space and time. He believed that was why nuclear tests were conducted at certain places at particular times and could be predicted.
    Also that there could be no sneak nuclear attacks as they could be predicted (if I recall correctly – probably not).

    I have no knowledge or understanding of the mathematics behind it all. It is interesting though.

  13. JC Avatar

    Sacking all those employees (from pilots to baggage handlers) who didn’t want the jab turned out not to be such a good idea. Fancy that!

    They aren’t the government with the ability to print money. A business forced to close down for two years has to make some pretty tough decisions when the pac-man (costs) is working against you.

  14. Dot Avatar

    It’s not just here. Airlines all over the world have paid the price for believing COVID hysteria.

    Good. Lessons must be learnt.

  15. Dot Avatar

    Dafuq is an “Abbrozeschual”???

  16. johanna Avatar
    johanna

    For a bit of laid back stuff – The Beach Boys’ I Can Hear Music:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOsial01K0g

  17. Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity Avatar
    Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity

    JC says: July 22, 2022 at 8:07 pm

    Sacking all those employees (from pilots to baggage handlers) who didn’t want the jab turned out not to be such a good idea. Fancy that!

    They aren’t the government with the ability to print money. A business forced to close down for two years has to make some pretty tough decisions when the pac-man (costs) is working against you.

    +1

  18. Dot Avatar

    Abrosexual refers to an individual whose sexuality is changing or fluid. For example, someone could be gay one day, then be asexual the next, then polysexual the next.

    Right.

    Women who get headaches.

  19. miltonf Avatar
    miltonf

    I recall my aunt saying, regarding politicians, that as far as she was concerned we would be better off without any of them. That was in 1973. I think that 50 years later they’ve actually become more remote and contemptuous of the electorate. I don’t recall Whitlam wanting to close down power stations.

  20. bespoke Avatar
    bespoke

    The Grey Man makes John Wick look like a girl scout.

  21. Dot Avatar

    Sortition, subsidiarity, term limits, confederalism and recall elections.

    Your Aunt was right. As right as she was about anger, happiness and the medulla oblongata.

  22. bespoke Avatar
    bespoke

    Dotsays:
    July 22, 2022 at 8:09 pm

    Told my wife what you said Dot, she laughed.

    Cheers

  23. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha Avatar
    Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Anyway, “Sliante” to all you mob.

    Mme Zulu has just had her first “solid” meal in over six weeks….

  24. Bluey Avatar
    Bluey

    miltonfsays:
    July 22, 2022 at 8:03 pm
    Jobs seem to be chasing people atm- it’s strange with such a sick economy. Maybe it’s what Roger said.

    Job hunting has been a somewhat odd experience. Recruitment agencies generally = vax mandate still. Strong theme of no one can get staff, let alone good staff. But I’ve still had places turn me down when I state a pay rate that’s more or less high middle of what I can expect with my level of experience.

    That said, I did go to an interview where I walked out with a job offer. They didn’t even blink at what I was asking, I just said I’d get back to them inside the next week because I’d like to hear what other employers had to say. Leaning toward that one though, seemed like a nice level of constant work, but not flat knacker all the time.

  25. johanna Avatar
    johanna

    While we’re on the subj – The Beach Boys doing Sloop John B:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSAoEf1Ib58
    What a wonderful band they were.

  26. dover0beach Avatar

    Laocoon of Troy
    @LaocoonofTroy
    The corpse of a Carmelite nun, exhumed and placed on public display by the Republicans (communists) in Barcelona, Spain, during the Spanish Civil War. July, 1936.

    Quite unbelievable.

  27. miltonf Avatar
    miltonf

    Even just walking into servos- most seem to want console operators, cafes want staff too.

  28. Boambee John Avatar
    Boambee John

    miltonf

    I don’t recall Whitlam wanting to close down power stations.

    One of the unfortunate losses from the end of Witless was that RFX Connor didn’t get the chance to fulfill his dream of a full nuclear cycle in Australia – mining, processing, enrichment, power reactors, re-processing of spent fuel rods, waste storage.

  29. Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity Avatar
    Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity

    dover0beach says: July 22, 2022 at 8:36 pm

    The corpse of a Carmelite nun, exhumed and placed on public display by the Republicans (communists) in Barcelona, Spain, during the Spanish Civil War. July, 1936.

    Quite unbelievable.

    Bizarre – to the nth degree.

  30. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha Avatar
    Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Oh, and the lady’s given up smoking, after fifty years…

  31. miltonf Avatar
    miltonf

    Fascinating BJ- Gorton wanted nuclear power too.

  32. Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity Avatar
    Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity

    miltonf says: July 22, 2022 at 8:37 pm

    Even just walking into servos- most seem to want console operators, cafes want staff too.

    The shortage is far more desperate than that.

  33. miltonf Avatar
    miltonf

    Gave up smoking 12 years ago- just made me feel like crap though I used to find rollies a lot less toxic than factory ciggies.

  34. johanna Avatar
    johanna

    . I don’t recall Whitlam wanting to close down power stations.

    Not on the agendum in those days. If it was all da rage at international forums, he would have been ‘in like flynn.’

  35. Bluey Avatar
    Bluey

    miltonfsays:
    July 22, 2022 at 8:37 pm
    Even just walking into servos- most seem to want console operators, cafes want staff too.

    Just the excuse to start the population ponzi up again.

  36. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha Avatar
    Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    RFX Connor didn’t get the chance to fulfill his dream of a full nuclear cycle in Australia – mining, processing, enrichment, power reactors, re-processing of spent fuel rods, waste storage.

    Wasn’t RFX Connor one of the architects of the “Loans Affair?” Tirath Kemlani?

  37. Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity Avatar
    Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity

    Bluey says: July 22, 2022 at 8:48 pm

    Even just walking into servos- most seem to want console operators, cafes want staff too.

    Just the excuse to start the population ponzi up again.

    Bluey, it is far closer to home than that.
    Reality for those blokes is: They got no staff. They can’t get any staff.

    Population Ponzi ain’t even on their radar – not that most of them would even know what population ponzi meant.

  38. johanna Avatar
    johanna

    True, Zulu. He was a crook and a man with a vision. It happens.

  39. rickw Avatar
    rickw

    Recruitment agencies generally = vax mandate still.

    The Mong Is Strong in Australia.

  40. Bluey Avatar
    Bluey

    They might not know, the political types on the other hand.

  41. Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity Avatar
    Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity

    They might not know, the political types on the other hand.

    It is a total mystery to me why seemingly the only solution to any labour shortage is to import overseas workers + their entire family, on a pathway to residency (i.e. pathway to citizenship)

    Left/Right seem to be in lockstep on this.

    Any other solution is pooh-poohed as unworkable, or (hahaha) open to exploitation by dud candidates.

  42. rickw Avatar
    rickw

    They aren’t the government with the ability to print money. A business forced to close down for two years has to make some pretty tough decisions when the pac-man (costs) is working against you.

    At they end of the day it’s their own fault. They’re all fucking cowards. Anyone with some guts would have told government to fuck off. Jim’s Mowing them.

  43. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha Avatar
    Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    True, Zulu. He was a crook and a man with a vision. It happens.

    That loan was for twenty years, at an interest rate of 9% per annum, principal and interest to be paid in one lump sum, when the loan expired…

  44. rickw Avatar
    rickw

    Got to the point of talking about stuff that probably got me on another list somewhere, but given he’s a fitter and turner by trade……

    Australia may well end up being liberated by the proliferation of $600 Chinese Mini Lathes!! 🙂

  45. Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity Avatar
    Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity

    Jim’s Mowing didn’t have to pay a huge workforce to sit around.

  46. Bluey Avatar
    Bluey

    rickwsays:
    July 22, 2022 at 9:05 pm
    Got to the point of talking about stuff that probably got me on another list somewhere, but given he’s a fitter and turner by trade……

    Australia may well end up being liberated by the proliferation of $600 Chinese Mini Lathes!! ?

    Mate’s rather chuffed about the one he picked up. Can’t remember brand etc. but think it was a 1950’s build, and rock solid.

  47. calli Avatar
    calli

    dover0beach says: July 22, 2022 at 8:36 pm

    They were capable of anything. Yet bright eyed and bushy tailed youngsters (and some who should have known better) joined International Brigades and involved themselves in the bloodshed.

  48. rickw Avatar
    rickw

    Jim’s Mowing didn’t have to pay a huge workforce to sit around.

    He took Dickhead Dan to court on behalf of his franchisee’s.

    10X more than the rest of the dumb fucks that run companies in Australia did.

  49. rickw Avatar
    rickw

    Mate’s rather chuffed about the one he picked up. Can’t remember brand etc. but think it was a 1950’s build, and rock solid.

    Aussie built? Hercus, Sheraton, Veem, Nutall, Purcell?

  50. Rabz Avatar
    Rabz

    Yeah, yeah, grate to see youse all again (again???)

    The Eno and the Byrne* (1981) …

    America is Waiting (hopefully for that foul syphilitic geriatric to enter hell – forever) …

    Recorded before this mighty epic

  51. Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity Avatar
    Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity

    He took Dickhead Dan to court on behalf of his franchisee’s.

    Whom he did not have to pay.
    They had to remain inside their house – otherwise they’d kill people; whilst govt employees performing the exact same tasks kept working & drawing pay – coz no risk whatsoever of covid.

    His actions were commendable & deserve 100% support.

    However he was not facing the issue Qantas et al were; If Jim had to pay wages to all who pre-covid were wearing a Jim’s shirt – he’d have bled himself dry by June.

  52. miltonf Avatar
    miltonf

    Yes Connor aka ‘the strangler’ was a big player in the ‘loans affair’ iirc- I was still at primary school.

  53. Bluey Avatar
    Bluey

    rickwsays:
    July 22, 2022 at 9:20 pm
    Mate’s rather chuffed about the one he picked up. Can’t remember brand etc. but think it was a 1950’s build, and rock solid.

    Aussie built? Hercus, Sheraton, Veem, Nutall, Purcell?

    Sorry, been a while since he talked about it and I’ve forgotten. Picked it up for SFA somewhere he was doing work. They just wanted to get rid of it.

  54. johanna Avatar
    johanna

    People using charcoal braziers to stay warm and dying:

    In old Agatha Christie novels, people used charcoal braziers to keep their feet warm on draughty trains in the 1930s.

    Welcome to the Green New Dream.

  55. Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity Avatar
    Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity

    Repost of Vikpol getting a flogging:

    About halfway down is a thumbnail photo of the two officers. (Who have not left the force, despite their bleatings to the court)

    That photo could be a still from the “Tomorrow Belongs to Me” segment of Cabaret.
    Plod really should rethink the SS-style togs they get around in.

  56. rickw Avatar
    rickw

    However he was not facing the issue Qantas et al were; If Jim had to pay wages to all who pre-covid were wearing a Jim’s shirt – he’d have bled himself dry by June.

    Exactly, that’s why they should have told government to fuck off.

    I told my management after the end of the two weeks to flatten the curve that they needed to tell government to fuck of. It was done. Locking up society wasn’t a solution, and if they kept it up long enough everyone was going to be flat broke. Which we are.

  57. Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity Avatar
    Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity

    Exactly, that’s why they should have told government to fuck off.

    Jim’s franchisees would have been picked off one by one.

    The resolve of individual franchisees would be tested when the first couple received the grandaddy of all fines, plus bail conditions stipulating they not earn a living, or else they stay in jail for several months, a la Monica Smit.

  58. rickw Avatar
    rickw

    Plod really should rethink the SS-style togs they get around in.

    I missed that! Nice touch! Dressing like a Nazi seems to be a pretty good predictor of being a Nazi!

  59. Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity Avatar
    Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity

    I told my management after the end of the two weeks to flatten the curve that they needed to tell government to fuck of.

    The whole country should have.
    Your management may have been big enough to pull it off. Qantas would have been.

    For the rest of us, one person cannot possibly take on the system alone.
    My rebellious intent, written public mockery & written public ridicule, of the covid authorities & their rules are semi-legendary among the lower echelon of authorities (skite, skite) however I did not break a single law.
    I could not afford to.

  60. Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity Avatar
    Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity

    Dressing like a Nazi seems to be a pretty good predictor of being a Nazi!

    Sure is!
    It’s enough for the govt to sool ASIO onto a few incels stumbling over rocks at the Grampians & clumsily waving banners.

  61. rickw Avatar
    rickw

    Advice for The Peasants:

    “I feel for everyone who is suffering, but multiple layers of clothing will keep you warm.”

  62. Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity Avatar
    Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity

    Reserve Bank spokescockhead:
    “High interest rates won’t cause you financial stress, simply use cash reserves & savings and you won’t have to lose your house”

  63. rickw Avatar
    rickw

    Your management may have been big enough to pull it off. Qantas would have been.

    Exactly, but what we have is really a form of fascism. Corporations vying to kiss the arse of probably the greatest collection of Mongs ever assembled.

  64. P Avatar
    P

    Zulu Kilo Two Alpha says:
    July 22, 2022 at 8:42 pm

    Oh, and the lady’s given up smoking, after fifty years…

    For me it was 53 yrs. Now almost 9 yrs ago but there is never a week goes by that I do not at least 0nce yearn for a cig.

  65. Rabz Avatar
    Rabz

    He took Dickhead Dan to court on behalf of his franchisee’s

    Yep. Guts and courage as the saying goes.

    Face nappie update, Sydneystan trains: 80% of commuters clad in them in the morning – on a different line to the one I caught two weeks ago.

    Going home (at about 4:00pm), 70% unclad. The latter included pacific islander tradies, various other non anglo types, a certain type of young woman (i.e. one that doesn’t mask beauty) and myself.

    Was Opal tested going in and out of the city and it wasn’t raised.

    Seriously, peoples, it’s over. The mopping up operations need to begin in earnest.

    Those still willingly wearing face nappies are akin to the japs found languishing in various Pacific isles long after the war in that theatre had ended.

    Presumably they’re to be pitied rather than scorned. I’ll be dishing out much of the latter. 🙂

  66. Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity Avatar
    Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity

    Apropos those midnight black SS togs the cops get around in;
    A few months ago a couple of young & short Plod bailed me up about 2.30 in the morning, on the footpath behind the pub (the main street of town), or they would have bailed me up there, I didn’t see them in the half dark, on top of that both were so short I could see over the top of their heads.

    They didn’t accept the observation that they couldn’t be seen in the dark & as they hadn’t identified themselves as police (they didn’t think they needed to) I’d taken no notice of them.

    They both were quite young & quite green.
    Substantive matter: I did not see them in the shadowy half dark.

  67. Rabz Avatar
    Rabz

    Welcome to the Green New Dream

    You will own nothing
    You will exist in a pod
    You will eat the bugs
    You will be happy

    … or else

    Modern day grünschmutz (as opposed to their notorious progenitors)

  68. Rabz Avatar
    Rabz

    I did not see them in the shadowy half dark

    All the better for them to creep up on you and try and administer a truncheon to your bonce.

  69. cohenite Avatar
    cohenite

    And suddenly, you realise that Combet is a pillock…

    Combet was the minister for climate change and energy efficiency in 2010. He was a fuckwit then and has been reincarnated in turtlehead.

    In 2010 Combet’s dick-dragging supine support of climate change was questioned by a now non-existent LNP member who had balls, Anthony Byre. He wrote a letter spewing full of all the AGW tropes and bullshit. This response to Combet’s letter was put up at the now Google banned Climate Sceptic’s Blog (it’s long and pointless since is is reasoned and evidence based):

    Combet has written a superficially clever letter. It justifies by exclusion; the mechanisms of exclusion are authority and consensus; validity is thus defined by designation from above and from ‘below’ by group acceptance of the authoritative pronouncements. This is a closed loop with each part of the loop vindicating the other; the loop is an attempt to create a priori knowledge by reliance on the authoritative source and the group acceptance. People who do not accept the authority or who are not part of the group acceptance have no validity and are at best ignorant of the knowledge of the ‘loop’.
    The ‘loop’ is profoundly unscientific because it ignores Richard Feynman’s maxim of scientific proof:
    The exception proves that the rule is wrong. That is the principle of science. If there is an exception to any rule, and if it can be proved by observation, that rule is wrong.
    As I will show each of Combet’s examples of authority and consensus are contradicted by observed exceptions and his justification for the government’s measures to combat AGW is therefore flawed.
    Paragraphs 2 and 3 of the letter refer to the ultimate source of authority, the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change [IPPC] and its 4th report, AR4. There are 2 key points from AR4 relied upon by Combet. The first is the standard of certainty of the IPPC’s conclusions about AGW: that “most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid 20th Century is very likely due to the observed increase in greenhouse gas concentrations.”
    The IPPC’s standards of certainty were recently audited and found deficient by the InterAcademy of Science [IAC]. The IAC found that these standards were inappropriate and exaggerated. In an article co-authored by David Stockwell and myself the implications of the IAC’s findings were examined:
    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/29880.html
    The salient point about the IAC’s findings is that if the IPPC’s standards of certainty are wrong then that means the scientific basis of those standards is problematic: if “mid-20th Century” warming is NOT “very likely” due to “the observed increase in greenhouse gas concentrations” then the basis of AGW is compromised.
    The IAC is an internationally recognised source of scientific expertise. For Combet to ignore its findings shows that he is either getting bad advice or ignoring good.
    Combet’s second IPPC key point is his assertion that AR4 uses “climate change literature that has been extensively peer-reviewed and published in scientific journals”. Combet also reiterates the prominence of the peer review system in creating the “robustness” of the “climate change science” in the second last paragraph of his letter. His reliance on the peer review system generally and in particular its use in AR4 is ill-informed. For instance, the science sources in AR4 have been audited:
    http://hro001.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/uns-climate-bible-gets-21-fs-on-report-card/
    The audit found that 21 of AR4’s 44 chapters had 59% or less of their official sources non peer-reviewed; in many of those instances organisations such as Greenpeace or the WWF were the source. Overall no chapter of AR4 had their scientific sources entirely peer-reviewed and the high concentration of references from groups with a green ideology means that the scientific credibility of AR4 was severely diminished.
    The idea that AR4 represents a consensus of scientific opinion has also been found to be flawed. In the crucial chapter 9 of AR4 from which Combet extracts his first key point that “mid-20th Century” warming is “very likely” due to “the observed increase in greenhouse gas concentrations” the number of contributing scientists is crucial. Claims of up to 2500 scientists supporting this statement have been made. A detailed analysis of these claims has been made by Tom Harris and John McLean:
    http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=7553&page=0
    [A more detailed analysis by John McLean is here: http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/originals/McLean_IPCC_bias.pdf%5D
    Harris and McLean note that only 5 independent scientific reviewers contributed to the vital chapter 9.
    Dr’s Hulme and Mahoney from the University of East Anglia also reject the idea of a mass consensus supporting AGW, describing any such claim as disingenuous:
    http://www.probeinternational.org/Hulme-Mahony-PiPG%5B1%5D.pdf
    The Hulme and Mahoney disavowal was particularly appropriate since the e-mail scandal was based on the CRU unit at East Anglia. The e-mails demonstrate that the peer-review system extolled by Combet is a deeply flawed system with active and hostile interference of scientific dissent by prominent pro-AGW scientists. A full discussion of the efforts to censor this dissent is in Dr John Costella’s review of the e-mails:
    http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/reprint/climategate_analysis.pdf
    Combet in his 4th paragraph claims that other reports support AR4. He refers to the Australian Academy of Science [ACS] August 2010 report. The report is well credentialed with the usual who’s who of Australian AGW involved, David Karoly, Matthew England, Michael Bird, Mike Raupach, Steven Sherwood and Kurt Lambeck doing the introduction. Despite this blue blood of AGW science the first information page features striking errors:
    http://www.science.org.au/reports/climatechange2010.pdf
    Box 1 for instance asserts:
    “However, evidence going back up to 20 centuries does not show changes in global temperature resembling those that have taken place in the last 100 years 1-3”
    The references for this are of course Briffa and Mann. This is reprehensible. The recent McShane and Wyner paper has comprehensively contradicted the Mann and Briffa hockey sticks:
    http://noconsensus.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/aoas1001-014r2a0.pdf
    Nor is there any mention of the Wegman report which revealed the deep flaws in Mann’s study and the controversy about Mann’s data and methodology. These are egregious oversights.
    The errors continue with a reference to Arrhenius’s experiment:
    “The response of the climate system to human causation was foreseen by scientists more than a century ago 4”
    Arrhenius was a genuine scientist, but his so called proof of the influence of “carbonic acid” or CO2 was wrong in several profound ways. Firstly, he confused radiative loss with convective loss because he believed the glass container was impermeable to radiation. Arrhenius also did not understand that CO2 did not transmit radiation but in fact absorbs and reemits it for no net gain. Arrhenius’s experiment to test CO2’s heating properties used radiation limited to 9.7 microns, which is the wavelength at which water vapour is active, and at 100°C; he was unaware that CO2’s active thermal spectrum is at 14.77 microns and that radiation at such temperature is not representative of Earth’s radiative spectrum.
    This mistake with Arrhenius is compounded with a further error by ACS’s report in Box 2; there it is declared that water vapour is responsible for about ½ of the greenhouse effect. This is a basic mistake and contradicts the research and conclusions of premier climate scientists. Ramanathan and Coakley, in their 1978 research, show that water vapour has 2 ½ times the greenhouse effect that CO2 has. Their results show the relative greenhouse values of the greenhouse gases by the ‘simple’ technique of measuring the variation in radiation leaving the Earth when the various gases are removed:
    http://scienceofdoom.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/ramanathan-coakley-1978-role-of-co2.png
    As can be seen if water vapor is taken out there is a 25% increase in the radiation. And if we take out CO2 it is a 9% effect. Since the greenhouse effect of the other gases is negligible water vapor is not ½ of the greenhouse effect but nearly 75%. Professor Lindzen puts the greenhouse effect of water vapor and clouds at 98%:
    http://eaps.mit.edu/faculty/lindzen/153_Regulation.pdf
    The issue of water vapour is absolutely essential to AGW. The ACS shows this in Figure 1.1 with feedbacks from increasing water vapor amplifying the initial warming from CO2. This problematic feedback has been seriously challenged by a recent paper written by one of Australia’s and the world’s leading climate scientists, Garth Paltridge. Paltridge’s paper is based on thousands of radiosonde measurements of water vapour taken since 1958 by NOAA. Paltridge found water vapour had declined at mid to high atmospheric levels:
    http://www.theclimatescam.se/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/paltridgearkingpook.pdf
    AGW has hit back at Paltridge in the form a new Dessler paper which contradicts Paltridge’s findings:
    http://geotest.tamu.edu/userfiles/216/Dessler2008b.pdf
    Paltridge’s reply to Dessler and an analysis of Dessler’s paper has been done by Jo Nova:
    http://joannenova.com.au/2010/11/dessler-2010-how-to-call-vast-amounts-of-data-spurious/comment-page-1/#comment-125477
    There are then, two crucial aspects of the Paltridge/Dessler debate which have been ignored by the ACS report. The first and most obvious is that there is a debate. There is no mention in the ACS report about the basic contradiction between Dessler and Paltridge.
    The second aspect is that there has been recent research which tends to support Paltridge. If Dessler is right and more water vapour is occurring at the mid levels of the atmosphere then this would support a fundamental prediction of AGW, the Tropical Hot Spot [THS]. AGW says that with CO2 induced warming extra water will be evaporated, especially in the Tropics, with a rapid warming produced in the mid levels of the atmosphere due to the presence of the extra water vapour [see Figure 9.1(c) AR4]. This would create a THS.
    Whether a THS exists or not has been subject to intense debate; this debate now seems to have resolved against the THS with the publication of a paper by McKitrick, McIntyre and Herman:
    http://rossmckitrick.weebly.com/uploads/4/8/0/8/4808045/mmh_asl2010.pdf
    McKitrick et al show that the models are wrong and that there has been no temperature increase consistent with a THS. This is a groundbreaking paper published in a top climate science journal but the ACS has not referred to it. Not only does McKitrick’s paper remove one of the tenets of AGW but it gives support to a strong argument against another tenet in the form of Paltridge’s work.
    Combet then refers in his 5th paragraph to the US National Academy of Sciences. This report is a farrago and a source for the erroneous AGW claim that the indices of AGW are worsening. This is readily contradicted by a cursory examination of the NOAA report issued a month later. The NOAA report examines 7 indicators of AGW and presents them graphically. Six of the indicators show decreases since either 1998 or 2003 while the 7th indicator, sea levels, shows a declining rate of increase since 2003:
    http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/2010/pr20100728.html
    Despite this spokespersons for Combet and indeed Combet himself continue to claim that AGW is worsening. Yet the evidence is plain that this is not true.
    In his 6th paragraph Combet refers to The Royal Society report. This report has been strongly critiqued by Dr Goklany:
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/10/01/the-royal-society-still-embarrassing-science/
    As Dr Goklany notes The Royal Society report basically relies on IPCC conclusions without even referring to some of the provisos contained in AR4. In short it is a “me too” charade.
    Combet completes his list of supporting reports with reference to CSIRO and BoM’s State of the Climate report [SOC]. Combet says:
    “The snapshot notes that all of Australia has experienced warming over the past 50 years with the mean temperature rising by 0.7C since 1960.”
    This is a misrepresentation. In an exhaustive analysis Ken Stewart shows that all temperature records in Australia have been adjusted upwards by as much as 0.4C:
    http://kenskingdom.wordpress.com/2010/05/12/the-australian-temperature-record-part-1-queensland/
    For a summary of this analysis see http://joannenova.com.au/2010/09/australian-temperatures-in-cities-adjusted-up-by-70/
    Many of the particular site locations which are used to calculate state and national records have shown, in their raw, unadjusted data, declines in temperature over the 20thC.
    Basically the SOC has not used all the data at its disposal, which in climate science terms, means they have cherry-picked data to get their results. This is particularly obvious with the SOC pronouncements about rainfall declining in Australia during the 20thC which was based on data only from 1960! David Stockwell examines the faults with the SOC here:
    http://landshape.org/images/StockwellCSP.ppt.pdf
    Combe winds up his letter with a reference in the 3rd last paragraph to “recent research” finding “that 97-98 per cent of the most actively publishing researchers support the tenets of climate change as outlined” by AR4 and have more “relative climate expertise and scientific prominence” than sceptics. This is a dreadful statement. It relies on this paper by Anderegg, Prall, Harold and Schneider:
    http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/06/04/1003187107.full.pdf+html
    At one level Schneider’s ‘result’ is inevitable for reasons described by Stockwell and Cox [ibid] in response to a demand by Clive Hamilton to restrict AGW sceptics’ access to publication at the ABC to a ratio of 39:1 in favour of pro-AGW articles:
    “Hamilton’s ratio is based on a consensus-proving, peer reviewed paper co-authored by Stephen Schneider. This paper lines up scientists into good and bad or “climate deniers”. The first great flaw with this paper and the consensus generally is that it ignores the vastly disproportionate funding of science which is predicated on AGW being real compared with the pittance provided to sceptics. Educational institutions, government departments and official science bodies like the EPA, IPCC and CSIRO have concentrated their research, publications and training on the basis AGW is real. AGW has become the Zeitgeist and the consensus idea is part of the truth creation of that prevailing mood rather than a reflection of scientific validity which is independent of social context”
    More generally however, the consensus and authority arguments are the antithesis of scientific endeavour as enunciated by Richard Feynman. The system which Combet relies on to provide his authority and consensus is riven with faults and corruption; it is undermining the integrity of science. It will take a brave man to question the direction of the AGW debate. Combet, who lives by the ocean, is obviously not such a man.

  70. Wally Dalí Avatar
    Wally Dalí

    Sal, I got that same line from an AFP cop who’d gone full retard on me at Cocos airport. I noted that he hadn’t said his name, rank, number, and he had no visible name badge. This was when they were covering up their ID with flak vests, or plain old black tape.
    “I didn’t need to introduce myself, it was enough that I was identifiable as a police officer.”
    “Fine Karen, but my point is you were neither polite, calm or thorough. You going ballistic on me for particular apparent reason was extraordinary- don’t you think you could have wrapped up the situation a lot better if you had kept your temper and common decency?”

  71. Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity Avatar
    Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity

    All the better for them to creep up on you and try and administer a truncheon to your bonce.

    That’ll be the idea.
    They bluddee near did that anyway, as they thought I was doing a runner from them.

    They didn’t take it well when I suggested they were exhibiting symptoms of Downs syndrome – i.e. they assumed that coz they could see something (themselves) they were unable to process that I was unable to see the same thing.
    Their eyes were still young & sharp + they were fresh.
    They’ve no idea what it is to be old & tired.

    They always had the option to be civil/nice. eg a simple & audible: “Excuse me sir/bloke, have you a minute to help us?” or somesuch.

  72. Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity Avatar
    Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity

    Snap! Wally

  73. cohenite Avatar
    cohenite

    Sorry DB, I put up a long post with a lot of links in. If it’s too much trouble disregard it. It’s a rebuttal of that idiot Combet from when he was minister for climate back in 2010. It was originally published in the now Google censored Australian Climate Sceptics Blog. Combet was as bad as turtlehead is now. I’m afraid Australia is in for a very bad time with these fucktards in charge. Sri Lanka here we come.

  74. Rabz Avatar
    Rabz

    “… multiple layers of clothing will keep you warm.”

    I hate wearing “multiple layers of clothing” and being cold. Nothing beats shorts, a t-shirt and bare feet in this continent from about late September onwards.

    It’s one of the few obvious benefits of being here.

    “Yeah, but in winter, you get to dress up”

    Ideally, winter should last about two weeks (in the middle of our southern calendar) and involve minimal “dressing up”.

    Like it used to, before we were gifted with Gerbil Worming.

  75. Wally Dalí Avatar
    Wally Dalí

    It was good fun trolling the cop afterwards, because he was just simply making shit up on the fly.
    It was a bit unfair when he told me he was going to investigate the transport regulations act emergency provision mandate laws to see if there was anything he could bring me up to court for. Bastard. If a cop can’t quote off the top of his head the law which a prole is breaking, on site and at the time, then there should be no chance of arrest, or post-facto bastardry. I wish I’d recorded the phonecall, I regard it as pure spiteful abuse of his position.

  76. Rabz Avatar
    Rabz

    About the only way I see out now is Heads on Pikes

    Indeed, Bluey. This is where we’re at.

    We have been unrepentantly sold down the convenience by various disgusting vainglorious collectivist hypocrites chasing their thirty pieces from the time we were “gifted” with St Gough*.

    His visit to the “Peoples’ Republic” wasn’t just a photo opportunity.

    *The big fat waffling windbag, first of his name, supplicant of the 747 kickstarter, enabler of the il Cosa Nostra and figurative mother of the almighty indestructible welfare state, mate … 😕

  77. Harlequin Decline Avatar
    Harlequin Decline

    Been trying to post a comment for 23 hours now and getting Internal Server Error from the blog.

    Anyone else having problems?

  78. Wally Dalí Avatar
    Wally Dalí

    Taken up serious sprint running. Not much disatnce, but a good heart starter, sundown time.
    Funnily ebough, i find that I can wear naught but my running shorts and whatever poor workshirt which i’ve been in, for hours afterwards, while the girls are in uggboots and trackies and thinking about flanelette. It must be the deep draw on the metabolism. Twas always thus in my youth, there is not even a photo of us kids in long pants until deep into our teens. I’d even had a pledge with my mate up the road that we’d never wear pants to high school, and I only broke it when i was wasted by a fortnight of salmonella in year 9. Still went to school though.

  79. Knuckle Dragger Avatar
    Knuckle Dragger

    If a cop can’t quote off the top of his head the law which a prole is breaking, on site and at the time, then there should be no chance of arrest, or post-facto bastardry. I wish I’d recorded the phonecall, I regard it as pure spiteful abuse of his position.

    Preach it.

  80. Rabz Avatar
    Rabz

    Anyone else having problems?

    Evidently not, Squire.

  81. Harlequin Decline Avatar
    Harlequin Decline

    Beats me what was wrong with the post. Was justly denigrating the ABC 730 report featuring Dr Moron Swan.

  82. Knuckle Dragger Avatar
    Knuckle Dragger

    Anyone else having problems?

    It strikes randomly, in the manner of Chief Health Officer pronouncements on what will and won’t kill you.

  83. Rabz Avatar
    Rabz

    Taken up serious sprint running. Not much distance, but a good heart starter, sundown time.

    I’ve lost about five kilos from all the running over the last twelve months. The sprinting is more near the end, when you’re hoping it’s all over.

    Because of all the bloody rain, when I can’t get at least four runs a week, the vivid dreams commence. It’s become a state of mind.

  84. Harlequin Decline Avatar
    Harlequin Decline

    It may work in parts, first part-

    Last evening I caught the start of the ABC’s 730 report. I see they have changed the host harpy and their tame quack Dr Moron Swan was there to talk about the virus.

    He started by saying he is fully vaxxed(WTF that means these days) and that he has had the virus twice in the last 3 months.

  85. rickw Avatar
    rickw

    Excellent locomotive construction film from 1935:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx6hmSclbRE

  86. Harlequin Decline Avatar
    Harlequin Decline

    Second part-

    If he had any professional dignity he should have stopped there and then, blown a gasket and screamed at the camera-

  87. Rabz Avatar
    Rabz

    Moron Swan

    He and his equally stupid smugnorant sprog will find themselves intimately acquainted with the concept of HOP Time, in a “let them wear face nappies and be injected (repeatedly) with useless toxic chemical cocktails” kind of way.

    To paraphrase KD, “Trust me on this”. 🙂

  88. Harlequin Decline Avatar
    Harlequin Decline

    The third part doesn’t post so that’s the problem. I describe (with appropriate intensifiers) what he should do along the lines of-

    If he had any professional dignity he should have stopped there and then, blown a gasket and screamed at the camera-

    ‘…………………………!’

    Then stomped off to the pub to get shitfaced

  89. Harlequin Decline Avatar
    Harlequin Decline

    And the last part is-

    But no, various medicos were canvassed and without any hard data but quoting the occasional carefully curated study concluded that it was better to get a jab rather than wait for a vaccine that might work because…something.

    I don’t know how he sleeps at night after peddling that sort of bullshit.

  90. cohenite Avatar
    cohenite

    Anyone else having problems?

    Its my fault; I attempted to post a 1500 word essay with 35 links rebutting Combet when he was minister for the environment, and by inference what turtlehead is doing now. It’s probably short-circuited the site and I apologise for the inconvenience.

  91. Mater Avatar
    Mater

    The Grey Man got panned by the critics.
    I’ve learnt over the last couple of years that my views on pure entertainment are inversely proportional to modern critics, so I watched it.

    Glad I did. I enjoyed it for pure, unrealistic entertainment. Suspension of disbelief is a must, but we should all be used to that.

    Plus, it has Ana de Armas in it, arguably the hottest women on the planet. See latest James Bond for additional evidence.

  92. Harlequin Decline Avatar
    Harlequin Decline

    So the stuff inside the quotes is the problem. I’ll try something similar –

    So the ….. don’t fucking work

  93. Rabz Avatar
    Rabz

    he is fully vaxxed (WTF that means these days) and that he has had the virus twice in the last 3 months

    Idiocracy. We are existing in it, like it or not.

    The quaccines are the equivalent of Brawndo and about as effective.

  94. Mater Avatar
    Mater

    Its my fault

    Nah, it’s been happening randomly for days now.
    Hit and miss.

  95. Harlequin Decline Avatar
    Harlequin Decline

    Seeing that worked I’ll try this-

    So the fucking vaccines don’t fucking work.

  96. Harlequin Decline Avatar
    Harlequin Decline

    OK my post had words in quotes that ended with !

    Maybe that causes an Internal Server Error message.

  97. Bar Beach Swimmer Avatar
    Bar Beach Swimmer

    HD,
    I saw a clip of Deborah Birx – the blonde, scarf wearing Dr in the thick of it during the Fauci & Trump pressers in 2020 – on the High Wire.

    She was giving evidence to the House Hearing on the Trump Administration’s Covid-19 Response at Washington D.C. on 23/6/22.

    Her bit’s about 3-4 minutes, but the entire vid is worth watching.

    https://thehighwire.com/videos/malone-urso-kory-stop-vaccinating/

  98. Bar Beach Swimmer Avatar
    Bar Beach Swimmer

    That’s interesting. That’s the first I’ve ever been able to put up a link.

  99. Harlequin Decline Avatar
    Harlequin Decline

    Mater,

    Agree with your assessment of Ana de Armas . After watching the last James Bond I though the same and looked her up on the internet.

    If she’s in the Grey Man it would be worth watching for her alone.

  100. Bar Beach Swimmer Avatar
    Bar Beach Swimmer

    HD @ 11:10pm, it’s confirmed.

  101. Wally Dalí Avatar
    Wally Dalí

    when I can’t get at least four runs a week, the vivid dreams commence.
    Now that sounds like a reason to look forward to quitting!
    Unless the dreams are about running. That would be a stuff-up.

  102. Wally Dalí Avatar
    Wally Dalí

    Harlequin Declinesays:
    July 22, 2022 at 11:10 pm
    Seeing that worked I’ll try this-

    So the fucking vaccines don’t fucking work.

    That was worth persisting for. Can’t be stated more aptly, and should be stated more often.

  103. Harlequin Decline Avatar
    Harlequin Decline

    BBS,

    Thanks , just heard from my brother in NZ that just wife has had neurological problems following a booster.

    Prior to the jab she had something like chronic fatigue over many years.

  104. Rabz Avatar
    Rabz

    fully vaxxed (WTF that means these days)

    Spoke with someone this week who proudly informed me they’d had their fourth shot.

    I work with an imbecile who’s had three shots (probably now up to four) who’s been gifted with bat flu twice, both times in the last three months.

    These peoples’ skulls are thicker than the concrete used in nookular* shelters.

    I deeply resent having to share a planet with them.

    Where’s a “B Ark”, when you need one, FFS.

    *Deliberate

  105. Bar Beach Swimmer Avatar
    Bar Beach Swimmer

    HD, sorry to hear that, there’s a protocol to follow if you’ve had problems following the jab.

    Zelensky put it out, I think.

  106. Harlequin Decline Avatar
    Harlequin Decline

    Rabz,

    Yep, you had to have 3 jabs to get into WA at some stage(since dropped) but I don’t know of any travel/employment requirements for 4.

    So, if they don’t work and clearly they do not-why bother let alone take the risk.

  107. Bar Beach Swimmer Avatar
    Bar Beach Swimmer

    Dr Zelenko

  108. Harlequin Decline Avatar
    Harlequin Decline

    BBS,

    Zelensky?

  109. Harlequin Decline Avatar
    Harlequin Decline

    BBS,

    Thanks, will look him up.

  110. Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity Avatar
    Salvatore, Understaffed & Overworked Martyr to Govt Covid Stupidity

    If a cop can’t quote off the top of his head the law which a prole is breaking, on site and at the time, then there should be no chance of arrest

    I dunno nuthin’ bout this – but I’ll go & look it up to see what I can book yer wif” ….. is not exactly the phraseology of one who is across his game.

    Them who brassily tells ya to yer face that they’re gonna hit the books to see what they might be able to gitcha with, they ain’t gonna gitcha fer nothing.

  111. Rabz Avatar
    Rabz

    Unless the dreams are about running. That would be a stuff-up.

    Not. Floating and charging in neighborehoods not existed in since the childhood.

    Then waking up occurs and it’s back to the weekly drudgery.

    Running is like dancing, when engaged in it, you are utterly bereft of life’s banal idiocies …

  112. Winston Smith Avatar

    MiltonF:

    New York Gov. Kathy Hochul (D) sent out a press release urging her supporters to “RSVP” to her Republican challenger Rep. Lee Zeldin’s (R) upcoming campaign stop, just hours before a man rushed the stage at one of Zeldin’s events in a failed attack.

    Jeez, Milton. That’s been ridden hard and put away wet…

  113. Winston Smith Avatar

    Harlequin Decline:

    Anyone else having problems?

    I kept getting them last weekend but none so far this week.

  114. Winston Smith Avatar

    rickw:

    Excellent locomotive construction film from 1935:

    Bloody hot and hard work there.

  115. Winston Smith Avatar

    HD:
    OK my post had words in quotes that ended with !

    Test!

  116. bespoke Avatar
    bespoke

    Can’t sleep!

  117. Struth Avatar

    You do realise that many of you are only now coming to conclusions that were presented to you nearly two years ago regarding the vaccine, and over two years ago as to what this really was all about.
    What made you throw scorn and mock this information that you now see to be true?

    When you can work that out, you may be able to bring yourself back sanity.

    When you can be disgusted by the behaviour of Qantas and do so without one thought as to your own reaction and behaviour since 2020, you aren’t there yet.
    You are responsible for the evil you tolerate, and what you comply with.You live in mental sickness when you live lies.

  118. Struth Avatar

    I reiterate. Manipulative.

    Fancy using a suicide scenario to demonstrate “friendship”. You are a showman, so I suppose drama is always going to be the default setting.

    Disgusting.
    Again, can’t argue logically so goes for character assisination.
    You told us all Calli, that you stand back and let your friends make any decision that they want, and you respect those decisions.
    I gave you a scenario asking if you would still stand back if they were about to kill themselves.

    I’m the sort of friend who wouldn’t.
    And you are the sort of friend who would obviously be happy to let him choice to kill himself.
    I used an example of hanging, but I could have used the example of letting people who want you dead inject you with an unknown substance…….no difference.
    None whatsoever.

    Until you can admit what you’ve done, they own your mind.
    They own you.
    You complied, and you will soon be in abject mental mysery trying to defend the lie.
    Socialism (totalitarianism) needs you to live the lie.
    You sacrificed your bodies.
    But worse, you gave them your minds.

    You get a chance to say they won against you in the first serious battle of the Great reset, but in living with the truth, you get to live in sanity and you can fight back.
    We are at war.
    What part of “the enemy wants me dead” in war don’t you get?
    Living the lie means you can’t even identify the enemy until it’s too late.

  119. Bear Necessities Avatar
    Bear Necessities

    Looks as though Manly NRL didn’t ask their players if they wanted to wear Pride jerseys. Quite a few don’t want to play this week.

Older Comments
1 9 10 11

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

  1. Matrix, JC, maths, music and language are the same. At least that’s how I have always found it, so they…