Open Thread – Tues 21 March 2023


Saturn Devouring his Son, Peter Paul Rubens, 1636


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Gilas
Gilas
March 24, 2023 8:31 pm

John H. says:
March 24, 2023 at 8:23 pm

Thanks.

No, I apologise for not being clear enough, but brevity has its benefits.
And you made excellent points, no disagreement from me.

Roger
Roger
March 24, 2023 8:33 pm

You should try Ukraine! For corruption by officials, it leaves Russia in the shade.

Ukrainians voted for Zelensky as an anti-corruption candidate.

They may have been naive to do so, but the popular will to deal with the issue was there.

Russians don’t get that choice.

H B Bear
H B Bear
March 24, 2023 8:35 pm

“I’ve been assaulted by the police today as a sovereign Gunnai Gunditjmara DjabWurrung woman”

That defence only used to work with Pat O’Shane in Sydney. Mind you it worked every time.

Indolent
Indolent
March 24, 2023 8:40 pm
Bar Beach Swimmer
March 24, 2023 8:45 pm

Steve T, if you’re about, thank you for that vid.

Robert Sewell
March 24, 2023 8:49 pm

John H:

Russia’s conventional war capacity has been crippled by corruption, lack of financing, and poor training. In a proper war with Russia everyone loses because Russia will have no choice but to press the MAD button.

People keep forgetting that Russia has a formidable second and third defence echelon.
So what if they have no more T90/T80/T72’s. They still have thousands of T34/85’s they can deploy when the West has used all their anti tank missiles, Abrams/Leopards/Chieftains and assorted ironmongery.
When the enemy has no more tanks and missiles, Russia has fleets of rubbish left over from the Great Patriotic War. FFS. Did we not learn anything from the German fixation on quality and technological supremacy against the Russian steamroller?
A tank can shoot to kill 4km. Beyond that, it is useless. Which is precisely where the Russian tank fleets will be. And then they will be in rear areas – with a casualty rate of 50%, but this is how the steamroller works. When you have a casualty rate of 50% but start off with 35,000 tanks it doesn’t matter when you are up against exhausted troops with sfa defensive capability.
We could rapidly lose a war against Russia if she mobilised her full potential and we stuck with our military arrogance.

Indolent
Indolent
March 24, 2023 8:50 pm
Ed Case
Ed Case
March 24, 2023 8:53 pm

That defence only used to work with Pat O’Shane in Sydney. Mind you it worked every time.
Pat O’Shane.
Legend.
With a sense of humour.

Indolent
Indolent
March 24, 2023 8:54 pm
rosie
rosie
March 24, 2023 8:56 pm

Would not surprise me in the slightest if that was a genuine wish list.
I remember in Victoria one of the local Aboriginal corporations was tossing around charging for using Aboriginal place names.
Lidia also canvassed rental payments from private property owners.
And we’ve also seen arbitrary denial of long standing public access to newly handed over ‘always was, always will be’

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
March 24, 2023 8:57 pm

it comes to down to personal vocabulary rather than objective specificity. It is one example why the study of emotions is fraught with epistemic nightmares

self awareness score – 1/10

I’d give John H some leeway, because there is a meaning to this, but perhaps best not argued here in quite these terms. He’s elaborated on this to help explain it more.

We are all different with different areas of study and experience to bring here. A good thing.
It’s possible to be self-aware of being linguistically tendentious and to strive most of the time to avoid it, while still seeing some value in it.

Bruce of Newcastle
Bruce of Newcastle
March 24, 2023 8:58 pm

I don’t think Ukraine is OK and I don’t think Russia is OK either. It’s a stupid horrible bloody mess like the Somme. There are signs both sides are running out of the wherewithal to fight. They’re down to shovels, in some cases according to reports. But I can’t see either side compromising anytime soon.

Boambee John
Boambee John
March 24, 2023 8:58 pm

a sovereign Gunnai Gunditjmara DjabWurrung woman

Is that something like a sovereign citizen?

rosie
rosie
March 24, 2023 9:00 pm

Oh and thank you Dr Faustus for that very informative article about excess deaths in Australia.

Crossie
Crossie
March 24, 2023 9:03 pm

So much for Jack Houghton’s media show on Sky. He is discussing the marching Nazis at the Melbourne rally but blurred their faces. Wouldn’t want them to be identified, now would we?

Roger
Roger
March 24, 2023 9:05 pm

Would not surprise me in the slightest if that was a genuine wish list.

Context?

Roger
Roger
March 24, 2023 9:08 pm

I don’t think Ukraine is OK

You were verballed, Bruce.

Probably not maliciously, though

Eyrie
Eyrie
March 24, 2023 9:09 pm

People keep forgetting that Russia has a formidable second and third defence echelon.

Even a Mig 15 or Mig 17 is a formidable opponent once you have run out of missiles.

Robert Sewell
March 24, 2023 9:10 pm

Tinta:

Oh dear, this should have come with a trigger warning – feeling rather nauseous now

Didn’t mean to upset you gastronomic senses, Tinta.
I was just taking the piss.
Besides which – I found a tin of shredded Pineapple in the stash of tucker. It’s rather yummy with a bit of that smelly cheese.
*snork*.

Ed Case
Ed Case
March 24, 2023 9:11 pm

Would not surprise me in the slightest if that was a genuine wish list.
I’m not in the least surprised to hear you say that.

Crossie
Crossie
March 24, 2023 9:12 pm

Bruce of Newcastle says:
March 24, 2023 at 8:58 pm
I don’t think Ukraine is OK and I don’t think Russia is OK either. It’s a stupid horrible bloody mess like the Somme. There are signs both sides are running out of the wherewithal to fight. They’re down to shovels, in some cases according to reports. But I can’t see either side compromising anytime soon.

This war will end when the US says it’s over and I can’t see that happening until there is a change of administration in Washington DC.

Boambee John
Boambee John
March 24, 2023 9:19 pm

Eyriesays:
March 24, 2023 at 9:09 pm
People keep forgetting that Russia has a formidable second and third defence echelon.

Even a Mig 15 or Mig 17 is a formidable opponent once you have run out of missiles.

After 60 or 70 years of Soviet/Russian maintenance, much of it while in storage, they are also formidable risk to their pilots. Unlike an old tank, when something fails, it is a long way down.

Sancho Panzer
Sancho Panzer
March 24, 2023 9:20 pm

“I’ve been assaulted by the police today as a sovereign Gunnai Gunditjmara DjabWurrung woman”

Assaulted?
Phht.
Not even Patrick Dangerfield would get a free kick for that.
Play on.

John H.
John H.
March 24, 2023 9:22 pm

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Bearesays:
March 24, 2023 at 8:57 pm
it comes to down to personal vocabulary rather than objective specificity. It is one example why the study of emotions is fraught with epistemic nightmares

self awareness score – 1/10

I’d give John H some leeway, because there is a meaning to this, but perhaps best not argued here in quite these terms. He’s elaborated on this to help explain it more.

We are all different with different areas of study and experience to bring here. A good thing.
It’s possible to be self-aware of being linguistically tendentious and to strive most of the time to avoid it, while still seeing some value in it.

Fair point Lizzie. I have often been criticized for going technical in casual conservations. Part of my problem is that I was “forcefully” instructed on linguistic precision in relation to human behavior. This is the wrong place for that. I’ll try to avoid that.

John H.
John H.
March 24, 2023 9:31 pm

Boambee Johnsays:
March 24, 2023 at 9:19 pm
Eyriesays:
March 24, 2023 at 9:09 pm
People keep forgetting that Russia has a formidable second and third defence echelon.

Even a Mig 15 or Mig 17 is a formidable opponent once you have run out of missiles.

After 60 or 70 years of Soviet/Russian maintenance, much of it while in storage, they are also formidable risk to their pilots. Unlike an old tank, when something fails, it is a long way down.

Those Migs wouldn’t even see a modern aircraft coming. China has recently abandoned all its older Soviet style MIGs. If the current Russian fighters won’t enter Ukrainian s300 range what hope for them against AIM 260, Asraams, meteor and patriot missiles? The ASRAAM can kill aircraft directly in the rear. Nuts eh! A full 180 deg flip off the rail! The point of stealth aircraft is not to engage in BFM and be strictly BVR. Stealth aircraft can’t carry many missiles but the Eurofighter can carry 10 missiles, the Eagle EX at least 12. The AIM 260, the meteor have incredibly long ranges. Those aircraft will go bingo fuel before running out of missiles. The old MIGs will run out of fuel dodging all the missiles.

Tintarella di Luna
Tintarella di Luna
March 24, 2023 9:32 pm

Mother Lodesays:
March 24, 2023 at 12:25 pm

Mother Lode your comment is an excellent reminder of how utterly soulless and downright evil-hearted have been the occupants of high office – the high priestess of heartless, she who was affronted by the determination of her severely disabled daughter to live, “she just wouldn’t die”, she eminently qualified to be appointed President of the inHuman Rights Commission who presided over the debacle of Bill Leak’s hounding to death aided in that by the talentless, but exotic, pompous twerp. Indeed the carnival of freaks courtesy of the ruleless class.

cohenite
March 24, 2023 9:38 pm

More titles for the jaded:

The Summer Lovers: a sun blistered novel of sex and sin among the swank summer resort set.

The Sin Tight Sheath: she was poured into her clothes and clawed out of them by one man after another. But all were pawns she discarded at will; until one man used and abused her and she returned for more.

The Sex Dreamer: as she looked at her nude reflection desire mounted in her; she had to have a man, any man, anyway, right now!

The Sex Life of the Gods: she was more than a beautiful woman: she was white heat and surging womanhood all dolled up in the body of a French movie star. She was as wanton as a Polynesian dancer and as demanding as a nympho.

rickw
rickw
March 24, 2023 9:40 pm

So much for Jack Houghton’s media show on Sky. He is discussing the marching Nazis at the Melbourne rally but blurred their faces. Wouldn’t want them to be identified, now would we?

I wonder how many more links there are to Vikpol?

Robert Sewell
March 24, 2023 9:41 pm

Bruce of Nuke:

Amazing. The Russians never throw anything away. They’re like pack rats.

If you were to read “Inside the Red Army” by Victor Suvurov, you would have some understanding of the system that Russia has been using for over 100 years.
“When a new tank is allocated to a unit – say T72 model. The old tanks aren’t melted down or scrapped. They are sent to the reserve stock. They are refurbished and put into long term storage. The crews who have now done their time, and are familiar with the equipment go back to civvy street, and do their usual return of service obligation training every year. The new recruits are trained up on the new tanks – say T90’s – and after their service of two years go back to civvy street.”
The new unit with new tanks has a commanding officer who has an adjutant. The new unit also has an adjutant on permanent duty. This doubling up works down the line.
The second echelon units are commanded by Officers who are doing their jobs each and every day.
When there is a war, the first unit is called to the front. But the vehicle parks are not empty. The mothballed units of T64s are now filled with the reservists who have trained on the older tanks and are familiar with them. 24 hours later, a second division – not as strong or as effective as the first is rolled out of the vehicle parks.
These are the ‘invisible divisions’ that halted Hitlers armies. When the Germans worked out how many Divisions they had to destroy to defeat The Soviet Union, they thought it was 250. When the Soviet Union was rolling out their 500th Division, they got the shock of their lives.
Never underestimate the Russians. They may have clunky weapons that aren’t as sophisticated as ours, but there are many of them and their soldiers know how to use them.
Yes, the corruption endemic to Russian society may have taken the edge off their weaponry, but the firing squad and the purge can very quickly restore that effectiveness.
And the defence of the Motherland is in the milk that every Russian baby imbibes from the word go.

rickw
rickw
March 24, 2023 9:46 pm

After 60 or 70 years of Soviet/Russian maintenance, much of it while in storage, they are also formidable risk to their pilots. Unlike an old tank, when something fails, it is a long way down.

Not so sure. The Russians were pretty good at refurbishing their old hardware and then protecting it for long term storage.

There were mountains of MIG 17 airframes in Afghanistan. All stripped of every single part that could be unbolted.

lotocoti
lotocoti
March 24, 2023 9:47 pm

They’re down to shovels, in some cases according to reports.

FFS.
It’s called utility.
(Apparently Picatinny Arsenal has been awarded a $2billion contract to develop
a Modular Close Quarters Assault Shovel.)

Gilas
Gilas
March 24, 2023 9:50 pm

Robert Sewell says:
March 24, 2023 at 9:41 pm

Never underestimate the Russians. They may have clunky weapons that aren’t as sophisticated as ours, but there are many of them and their soldiers know how to use them.
Yes, the corruption endemic to Russian society may have taken the edge off their weaponry, but the firing squad and the purge can very quickly restore that effectiveness.
And the defence of the Motherland is in the milk that every Russian baby imbibes from the word go.

That’s correct, and what the arrogant idiots in the West ignore and/or under-estimate.

Tintarella di Luna
Tintarella di Luna
March 24, 2023 9:50 pm

Robert Sewellsays:
March 24, 2023 at 9:10 pm

I know you were and so was I, ever tried strawberries and blue vein cheese? ambrosia!!!

Robert Sewell
March 24, 2023 9:52 pm

John H:

Thanks Bruce, that’s even worse than the T62s. Must correct you though, Russia is throwing lives away.

“Mother Russia has many sons.”
In the encirclement efforts of the 6th Army at Stalingrad, on day 1, on the first day, against the 297th and 371st Infantry Divisions, the Soviet Union threw 13,000 men in Punishment Battalions against the German lines – not to breakthrough, but to prevent the redeployment of one of these infantry divisions further along the flanks.
Russia doesn’t give a rats arse about casualties – only results. The methods may be obscure to us, but not to them.

Zulu Kilo Two Alpha
Zulu Kilo Two Alpha
March 24, 2023 10:03 pm

“I’ve been assaulted by the police today as a sovereign Gunnai Gunditjmara DjabWurrung woman”

“as a sovereign Gunnai Gunditjmara DjabWurrung woman” claiming the protection of the legal system of the colonial power?

John H.
John H.
March 24, 2023 10:04 pm

Gilassays:
March 24, 2023 at 9:50 pm
Robert Sewell says:
March 24, 2023 at 9:41 pm

Never underestimate the Russians. They may have clunky weapons that aren’t as sophisticated as ours, but there are many of them and their soldiers know how to use them.
Yes, the corruption endemic to Russian society may have taken the edge off their weaponry, but the firing squad and the purge can very quickly restore that effectiveness.
And the defence of the Motherland is in the milk that every Russian baby imbibes from the word go.

That’s correct, and what the arrogant idiots in the West ignore and/or under-estimate.

It is impossible to invade Russia. Fool’s errand. The West twice thought about it and backed off. Ukraine is another war for the West to test its weapons and assess Russian military capability. The West has been doing that for decades. Great way to blood the troops and play with new toys. So what if a few million people get killed? Not our sons and daughters, doesn’t matter. It’s disgusting. What is so frustrating is we seem powerless to stop it.

This week was the 20 year anniversary of the Iraq War. Was there any mention of how many were killed, of how wretched Iraq now is, of how much money was made by the weapons manufacturers?

Zulu Kilo Two Alpha
Zulu Kilo Two Alpha
March 24, 2023 10:05 pm

“Mother Russia has many sons.”

“It is a wide road that leads to war, a narrow path that leads home, but old Mother Russia has plenty of sons.”

m0nty
m0nty
March 24, 2023 10:06 pm

Russian shovels are busy digging graves.

Ed Case
Ed Case
March 24, 2023 10:10 pm

“as a sovereign Gunnai Gunditjmara DjabWurrung woman” claiming the protection of the legal system of the colonial power?

Yeah.
Are you saying that a foreign tourist isn’t entitled to the protection of Australia’s Legal System?
Or just Lidia Thorpe?

lotocoti
lotocoti
March 24, 2023 10:25 pm

Warming up a bag of dicks for Melbourne’s trip home
has tripped the circuit breakers at the Gabba.

Pogria
Pogria
March 24, 2023 10:48 pm

That defence only used to work with Pat O’Shane in Sydney. Mind you it worked every time.
Pat O’Shane.
Legend.
With a sense of humour.
” Particularly when she was bashing the sh*t out of her husband.

There, fixed it for you.

Ed Case
Ed Case
March 24, 2023 10:52 pm

Citation, or you’re a liar.

Pogria
Pogria
March 24, 2023 10:55 pm

90% of Cats know what I’m talking about. Look it up for yourself. Google is your friend.

Zulu Kilo Two Alpha
Zulu Kilo Two Alpha
March 24, 2023 10:58 pm

Citation, or you’re a liar.

Where’s your citation for your claims that John Curtin was planning to commit treason, in the event of a Japanese invasion? I won’t mention the battle fleet at Pearl Harbor.

Speedbox
March 24, 2023 10:59 pm

Rogersays:
March 24, 2023 at 8:33 pm
Ukrainians voted for Zelensky as an anti-corruption candidate.

They may have been naive to do so, but the popular will to deal with the issue was there.

Zelensky came to power in May 2019 and I haven’t been in Ukraine since then. Not because of him but other things and then covid came along so no travel possible.

He was ‘lucky’ the war with Russia happened inasmuch as the endemic corruption (and it is endemic) proved to be far more resilient than he might have thought. Consequently, his popularity was failing as his claim to root out corruption seemed like yet another unfulfilled political promise.

Separately, there were allegations (unproven) that Zelensky was also corrupt and was intending to prune the lower branches of the corruption tree but only as a sign he was ‘doing something’. He and his mates would continue to feast from the trough. (This could easily be sour comments from his political opponents).

But, who knows!? The war happened and everybody’s attention was drawn elsewhere. However, there is ample evidence the corruption is flourishing during the war crisis with numerous reports and video footage of military materiel being spirited away (and not towards the troops) only to turn up in distant locations.

I can say with utter certainty that corruption by officials in Ukraine was totally routine. It was just the way of life. Even the lowest public servant was in for their share. Nothing was achievable unless you paid extra, in cash, and if you really wanted prompt action, offer US$. Whether that is still true, I don’t know. It is entirely possible that many who voted for Zelensky were not on the receiving end of this income but were instead contributing towards it. Therefore, anybody promising to stop the practice would garner a lot of votes.

MatrixTransform
March 24, 2023 11:02 pm

I’d give John H some leeway, because there is a meaning to this

Objective Specificity … does that mean like, getting to the bloody point?

MatrixTransform
March 24, 2023 11:03 pm

I was “forcefully” instructed on linguistic precision

LoL

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
March 24, 2023 11:07 pm

All regional Victoria Cats – Mater is organising a meet up on Easter Saturday with me and Hairy when we are in Bendigo absorbing operatic strurm und drang. No Opera for us on the Sat.

Mater suggests any regional Cats who would like to engage in a few drinks and chat a some venue on that Saturday get in touch with him. As he notes, most people have other arrangements, but all known commenters here would be welcome. Dover can probably assist with Mater’s details.

I will repost this tomorrow and next week sometime too for those who don’t check in regularly.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
March 24, 2023 11:10 pm

Objective Specificity … does that mean like, getting to the bloody point?

A rationally-based relationship to a clearly nominated thing? Something like that would be my take-out on it. John H can let us know.

MatrixTransform
March 24, 2023 11:15 pm

John H … has had too many bongs

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
March 24, 2023 11:17 pm

Philosophers, like scientists, aim for precision by specific ways of defining that which they discuss.
Dover might have something to add about this. Sometimes complex language can have a genuine utility. Domain utility. Everyone else knows what is meant by a given concept.

It can of course become self-serving and completely obscurantist, as in post-modernism.

And not suitable for bedtime. 🙂

Off to watch James Morrow’s US Report now, on replay. I really like James. He’s fun and clever too.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
March 24, 2023 11:18 pm

And then there is Rudd’s ‘programmatic specificity’. Not much of a political slogan, that one. lol.

John H.
John H.
March 24, 2023 11:20 pm

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Bearesays:
March 24, 2023 at 11:10 pm
Objective Specificity … does that mean like, getting to the bloody point?

A rationally-based relationship to a clearly nominated thing? Something like that would be my take-out on it. John H can let us know.

Come on Lizzie, you’re baiting me to go down that rabbit hole again! You know this all too well … .

Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of language.
–Ludwig Wittgenstein

Mark from Melbourne
Mark from Melbourne
March 24, 2023 11:22 pm

Boambee John says:
March 24, 2023 at 8:58 pm

a sovereign Gunnai Gunditjmara DjabWurrung woman

Is that something like a sovereign citizen?

She’s used that form of words a few times, and it seems an awful coincidence if that is what it is.

The loony, if often slightly adorable, ‘SovCit’ movement may yet be of some benefit. You just keep on swirling that particular drain, Lydia.

… DjabWurrung…

I can understand that the first letter of all these so-called nations gets capitalized, because of our whitey sentence structure (aka structural racism). How, exactly, does the name of a tribe with no written language end up with a capitalized letter in the middle, sans hyphen or any other white-privileged interference? It’s like some SciFi invented name. There’s no-one taking the pi$$ here, is there?

Fair Shake
Fair Shake
March 24, 2023 11:26 pm

Lizzie, Bendigo invite sounds good. Might be a stretch to get there. But if can join will do so.

Fair Shake
Fair Shake
March 24, 2023 11:29 pm

Just watched AfL Bne Lions v Melb Demons. Black xunt out midway thru last qtr. sorry load shitting. What a third world city the princess has turned Brisbane into.

Meanwhile we in Vic refuse to dig for gas…goes back into cnr and waits to whiskey effects to wear off. FU Dan! Grrrr!!!!

flyingduk
flyingduk
March 25, 2023 12:12 am

Gold just hit $2000 USD spot, and $3000 AUD

MatrixTransform
March 25, 2023 12:26 am

Gold just hit

can’t be right,
that barbarous relic seems to be going the opposite direction to everything else
i wonder why

Boambee John
Boambee John
March 25, 2023 8:28 am

Ed Casesays:
March 24, 2023 at 10:10 pm
“as a sovereign Gunnai Gunditjmara DjabWurrung woman” claiming the protection of the legal system of the colonial power?

Yeah.
Are you saying that a foreign tourist isn’t entitled to the protection of Australia’s Legal System?
Or just Lidia Thorpe?

You’re not a deep thinker are you?

She claims to be “sovereign”, but as soon as the claim is tested, demands protection from an organisation she claims to reject. Do foreign tourists reject Australia’s legal system?

Helen
Helen
March 25, 2023 6:45 pm

Who was the British guy who wrote about the Nuremberg Trials so the facts would be the facts and not rewritten – can anyone help me?

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