Gaza-Israel Thread #1


As promised, given recent developments and the threat of the Gaza situation spiraling into a regional war its probably best to concentrate news and discussion of them into a single thread.


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Katzenjammer
Katzenjammer
October 15, 2023 10:16 pm

Israel has known for years there are thousands of rockets. That’s never been a secret. About a decade or so ago I first read of sewerage problems in Gaza because pipes were used for rockets. Some of the main smuggling tunnels are under the southern border into Sinai. A few years ago Egyptian border troops and Sinai Bedouin had series of battles over access to the tunnel entrances. Paragliders were probably unexpected.

Katzenjammer
Katzenjammer
October 15, 2023 10:21 pm

I would like to know how their fence system was breeched. I would not be surprised if there was inside action there. Some of the farm people recognised workers that had been coming in to work on their farms as amongst the terrorists.

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2023/10/israels-last-leftist-government-issued-17000-work-permits-to-gazans-that-helped-hamas-enter-israel

Zatara
Zatara
October 15, 2023 10:39 pm

Hamas seen blocking evacuation routes in Gaza

Hamas has attempted to block Palestinians from evacuating the northern Gaza Strip, placing roadblocks on evacuation routes

Don’t know how accurate that is but hard to explain some of those pictures otherwise.

Zatara
Zatara
October 15, 2023 10:49 pm

From 2014 but it seems doubtful they have changed their methods.

Gaza: Hamas says 18 suspected informants executed

Hamas sources in Gaza say 18 people suspected of collaborating with Israel have been executed.

pour l’encouragement des autres

Zatara
Zatara
October 15, 2023 10:56 pm

I would like to know how their fence system was breeched.

Found a NYTimes article but it’s a pay site and I don’t have a subscription thus can only see part of the article. Perhaps someone who does could fill us in?

How Hamas Attacked Israel’s Communications Towers

Satellite imagery and drone videos show damage to infrastructure along the Gaza border shortly after the assault began.

JC
JC
October 15, 2023 11:00 pm

Here Zat

I subscribe to it because of the cooking section. 🙂

Hamas fighters launched coordinated attacks on at least four communications towers close to the Gaza border in the initial phase of their cross-border assault on Israel — the most sophisticated operation yet to disrupt the infrastructure in the area.

The attacks occurred within a few hours Saturday morning, alongside strikes on observation towers, according to a New York Times analysis of propaganda videos and satellite images.

Footage posted online on Saturday by the Al Qassam Brigades, Hamas’s military wing, showed a quadcopter drone hovering near a communications tower before it dropped an improvised explosive munition on generators at the base of the tower. The video also showed heavy smoke billowing from the area in the apparent aftermath of the attack. The sun is just rising over the horizon in the video, indicating the tower was struck shortly after Hamas began firing rockets at Israel.

A breach in the border fence is visible in the video, about a thousand feet from the communications tower. The tower is two-and-a-half miles west of the Be’eri kibbutz, near the northern end of Gaza, where Hamas fighters massacred more than 100 Israelis and took others as hostages on Saturday.

The other three towers — which are spaced between one and three miles apart along Israel’s border with Gaza — are seen smoking in satellite imagery captured at 11:31 a.m. on Saturday, several hours after Hamas’s attack on Israel began. It is unclear whether drones or some other weapon caused the damage.

From satellite imagery, all four of the communications towers look similar. But they could be used for different purposes, said Michael Armstrong, an associate professor of operations research at Brock University in Canada and an expert in military strategy.

Some may be for border surveillance, while others could be involved in the transmitting and receiving of data, such as military communications, he said.

The tower in the Qassam footage may be used for collecting intelligence as well as for facilitating cellular service, according to a former U.S. defense official who reviewed the video and spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss Israel’s surveillance capabilities. The former official added that the height of the towers, and their proximity to the border, indicates that they are used to monitor Gazans.

Mr. Armstrong said Hamas most likely targeted these towers to “blind Israeli commanders and prevent communication among their units.” He added that the munitions used would not need to be complex — they would just need to create shrapnel that could damage infrastructure like antennas, cameras and cables.

The attacks also included multiple strikes on Israeli observation towers used for visual surveillance along the border. The impact of the attacks on the towers’ functionality is not yet known.
Video
CreditCredit…The New York Times; satellite image by Copernicus via Sentinel Hub, video shared on Telegram by al-Qassam Brigades

In another video shared by Al Qassam, the same improvised munition delivered by drone near the Be’eri kibbutz was used to blow up a machine gun turret on one of the Israeli Defense Forces’ observation posts along the border.

Hamas has tried low-tech methods of attacking communications towers in the past — in 2018, a tower was targeted with a flaming kite in the Gaza Strip — but Mr. Armstrong said the attacks on Saturday were its first successful deployment of armed drones that he had seen.

JC
JC
October 15, 2023 11:02 pm

Dover

I’d assume armament stockpiles would be a secret.Why would Bloomberg be a reliable source and who in turn are they quoting as a reliable source?

Zatara
Zatara
October 15, 2023 11:06 pm

Thanks JC

That confirms what I had heard/read elsewhere. Obviously Hamas would have watched all that stuff being installed and studied what they knew to find a weakness.

Katzenjammer
Katzenjammer
October 15, 2023 11:10 pm

The intelligent fence – I read that Hamas destroyed the equipment that relays the sensitive fence detectors to the bases where it’s monitored. Sorry, can’t give a citation – been reading too many analyses and suppositions.
.
Never underestimate the intelligence of your enemies, said Sun Tzu. These are the same people who figured how to fire bomb Israeli field and forests with cheap toy balloons. They’re a foul disgusting mob but they’re not stupid.

Dot
Dot
October 15, 2023 11:31 pm

Gaza could fish in the Atlantic and Med; yet they had 45% unemployment in early 2023. Their resource base is far better than the West Bank has in many ways.

Gaza (and the West Bank) has (have) gas and oil too.

The potential for cheap electricity, gas and petroleum.
Access to cheap food (high-quality protein).
The possibility of cheap, virtually unlimited desalinated water (which they could even sell on).

They haven’t gone anywhere but backwards since 2006.

Helen
Helen
October 16, 2023 12:50 am

Thanks Zatara., JC and Katzenjammer, that makes sense. Much, much observation and some inside knowledge either through workers going in or sympathisers inside or both.

JC
JC
October 16, 2023 1:07 am

Why assume that?

It’s a very important national security issue. Obviously, you don’t think so.

Are armament stockpiles secret?

Yes they are.

Is the strategic oil reserve secret?

No it isn’t but neither is the underwear stockpile for the military.

You would need to ask Bloomberg.

No, yiu ask Bloomberg. You quoted them. Off you go or perhaps get another one of your silly Twitter comments to back your assertion.

JC
JC
October 16, 2023 1:31 am

More.

Is the strategic oil reserve a secret?

It’s not a secret if the US government releases the information and in this case it appears the US does. Because it chooses to!

Information about the U.S. stockpile of certain weapons, like missiles, can sometimes be found in newspapers and other media outlets. This information is often based on a combination of official statements, public disclosures, and expert analysis. Here’s how it typically works:

Official Statements: The U.S. government occasionally provides information about its missile stockpiles in official documents, reports, and press releases. For example, the Department of Defense or military branches may announce the procurement or retirement of specific missile systems.
Arms Control Agreements: Some arms control agreements, such as the New START Treaty, may require the United States to report certain information about its nuclear and missile arsenals. This data may be publicly available as part of international agreements.
Expert Analysis: Defense experts, think tanks, and research organizations may use open-source information and their own research to estimate the size and capabilities of the U.S. missile stockpile. These analyses are often published and can be a valuable source of information.
Leaks or Whistleblowers: Occasionally, leaks from government insiders or whistleblowers can provide insights into classified information, including missile stockpiles.
Media Coverage: Newspapers and media outlets often report on developments related to the U.S. military, including the procurement and deployment of missile systems. They may also cite official sources and experts in their reporting.
It’s important to note that the exact numbers and details may still be classified, and estimates can vary depending on the sources and methods used. Publicly available information may not provide a complete picture of the U.S. missile stockpile for national security reasons

In other words Bloomberg has no idea.

Zatara
Zatara
October 16, 2023 8:45 am

Apologies for recovering old ground but I was thinking about this one overnight:

“Hamas sources in Gaza say 18 people suspected of collaborating with Israel have been executed.”

Given the religion and organization involved I guess I just accepted what I was seeing without it really hitting me.

They.executed.suspects. Not convicts, suspects. They are even sub-human to their own people.

JC
JC
October 16, 2023 9:25 am

Zat

I wonder if Israeli intel cleaned house 🙂

Zatara
Zatara
October 16, 2023 9:27 am

Mis-posted this on the main thread.

Iran backs down. Throws Hamas under the bus.

Iran warns Israel: Don’t attack us, we won’t engage you

“Iran’s armed forces will not engage, provided that the Israeli apartheid does not dare to attack Iran, its interests, and nationals. The resistance front can defend itself,”

Zatara
Zatara
October 16, 2023 9:45 am

Dsicussion: Israel Complies With The Law Of Armed Conflict When Defending Against Terrorists Hiding Among Civilians

Clears up many of the false “violation of international law” claims the left loves to pull out of their rectum.

What it misses about this particular war is that it is in fact a a war and thus subject to the laws of war vice the humanitarian rules of conflicts less than war. Israel is in fact applying a classic siege as defined in the rules of war and in accordance with them. For instance:

The term siege refers generally to a military effort to surround and cut off an area, often but not always a city, to deny external access or egress, and secure the defender’s submission by deprivation or isolation.

In sieges and bombardments all necessary steps must be taken to spare, as far as possible, buildings dedicated to religion, art, science, or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals, and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not being used at the time for military purposes.

It is the duty of the besieged to indicate the presence of such buildings or places by distinctive and visible signs, which shall be notified to the enemy beforehand.

Zatara
Zatara
October 16, 2023 10:46 am

I wonder if Israeli intel cleaned house

JC

I’d assume it’s all hands on deck until the mission is accomplished, but an ugly wash-up in the de-briefs after.

Zatara
Zatara
October 16, 2023 11:41 am

Perhaps Dover. Hamas is also an acronym for Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamia or ‘Islamic Resistance Movement’.

Neither of our interpretations use their word ‘front’. Both use the word ‘resistance’.

A literal meaning of ‘resistance front’ in the Iranian context might also be the ‘Resistance Front of Islamic Iran’, an Iranian political party. But we can probably rule that out.

Kneel
Kneel
October 16, 2023 11:45 am

Leftie Bill Maher makes a good point:

“On Friday’s broadcast of HBO’s “Real Time,” host Bill Maher stated that if we were going to do a land acknowledgment in Israel like people do for Native American land in the U.S., they would acknowledge the land belongs to Israel and wondered, “why does this work for Indians but not Jews?” He also wondered why Israel is the only country that is expected to cede land it won in a war.”

RTWL

https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2023/10/13/maher-land-acknowledgments-seem-to-exist-for-native-americans-but-not-jews-in-israel/

Peter West
October 16, 2023 1:39 pm

I’m late, but it was a busy weekend.

Egyptian sources reportedly warned Israel of “something big” before Hamas attack. So, either Israeli intelligence sources are amongst the best in the world, and the Israelis let unspecified “something big” happen, or said sources are incompetent, as in 1973.

Scott Ritter has posted an article called Why I no longer stand with Israel, and never will again in his Substack. it makes for interesting reading. Some excerpts follow.

‘By the time I left UNSCOM, in August 1998, I counted myself as a genuine friend of Israel (there was a downside to this relationship—the FBI was investigating me for alleged violations of the espionage act, an investigation that did not end until after September 11, 2001, when, after an interview between myself and three FBI agents, the investigation was closed.)’

‘Another quote by Ben Gurion drove this point home. “Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors, and they defend themselves,” he said. “The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view, we want to take away from them their country.”’

‘Netanyahu’s statements directly contradicted the findings that my Israeli colleagues and I had reached—findings that were shared by the International Atomic Energy Agency, responsible for overseeing the dismantling of Iraq’s nuclear program—that the Iraqi nuclear program had been eliminated, and that there was no evidence of its reconstitution.’

‘To say I was furious at Israel for interfering with US foreign and national security policy is an understatement. Despite this, I continued to stand with Israel.’

‘And now I was being told that Israel had a hand in the creation of Hamas. The intent, my host told me, was to create a political divide within the Palestinian political leadership, and to dilute the power and influence of Yassar Arafat’s Fatah organization. In this, they had apparently succeeded.’

‘It later came out that this internecine conflict between Palestinians had been orchestrated by Israel to split the Palestinian political body, weakening it while providing Israel with the opportunity to improve relations with Fatah under the grounds that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.’

‘I have never stood with Hamas, and I never will.
I once stood with Israel, but I will never do so again.’

Roger
Roger
October 16, 2023 1:43 pm

The intelligent fence – I read that Hamas destroyed the equipment that relays the sensitive fence detectors to the bases where it’s monitored.

I saw that too – drones were reportedly used.

Muddy
Muddy
October 16, 2023 1:48 pm

According to wiki (I know, not the most reliable source), HMS is the acronym, but h@m@s (I refuse to express the word itself) is Arabic for zeal, strength, or bravery.

To use their chosen title is to compliment them.

Kneel
Kneel
October 16, 2023 1:49 pm

“The intelligent fence …”

Also, I think they became too dependent upon other electronics as well, such as monitoring social media etc, and stopped relying on actual boots on the ground to gather intelligence. If true, all Hamas had to do was “pass each other notes” to organise and no-one would have noticed…

bons
bons
October 16, 2023 2:39 pm

Interesting that Israeli intelligence fell into the trap that set the CIA up for 9/11.

The bright young things from the ‘Langley MBA’ agressively destroyed country expert organisations, booted people with on the ground knowlege, denigrated humint as expensive rumours.

‘Overheads’ and electronic surveillance were all that was needed.

When information regarding 9/11 planning trickled in the CIA had no means, and no interest, in dealing with it. “If you ain’t got a picture, it ain’t there”.

Mossad’s total awsome capability was based upon humint. A terrible price has been paid for ‘modernising’ that successful formula.

Security is far to important to be left to Government.

OT. I notice that the entire FAUDA cast and crew are either with their units or in support functions. It’s just like Australia really, the Four Corners and Q & A crews launching assaults on Dutton’s kids schools.

Makka
Makka
October 16, 2023 8:08 pm

Israel saying that Iran gave Hezbollah the instructions for the incursion (and therefore slaughter) from Gaza.

I think this is a nod towards Iran’s best friend China, back there in the shadows,

Louis Litt
Louis Litt
October 16, 2023 9:10 pm

What about the Armenian situation. The Israel situation is bad but I can’t get enough of what’s happened to the Armenians. Armenia and Georgia are in the cradle of Christianity and their survival to my mind is vital for the Christian world. The movt of 100k people l the loss of territory I can’t let it go.

duncanm
duncanm
October 16, 2023 9:41 pm
Makka
Makka
October 16, 2023 11:57 pm

dover;

Iran Helped Plot Attack on Israel Over Several Weeks
The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps gave the final go-ahead last Monday in Beirut

WSJ- 8 Oct.

This article speaks to Hezbollah involvement and support.

https://nypost.com/2023/10/13/iran-began-collaborating-with-hezbollah-and-hamas-on-israel-attack-plan-over-a-year-ago/

Reports not from Israel , that was an error. But reports Hezbollah were all all over it from prep stage.

Hamas alone are not disciplined or sophisticated enough to pull this off and evade Israeli surveillance/intel systems. If that’s so and Hezbollah are so deeply engaged, did Iran’s friend China have a role in support? The US response has been to shift around a lot of assets.

Gabor
Gabor
October 17, 2023 12:45 am

Makka
Oct 16, 2023 11:57 PM

Hamas alone are not disciplined or sophisticated enough to pull this off and evade Israeli surveillance/intel systems.

Don’t underestimate your enemies.

Makka
Makka
October 17, 2023 7:47 am

Don’t underestimate your enemies.

Sure. I also don’t underestimate Israel’s surveillance capabilities. Which are supported by the US.

In due course we’ll have explanations. For me, Iran’s involvement isn’t in question. They are deeply involved.

Makka
Makka
October 17, 2023 9:39 am

so soon when days earlier these agencies were none the wiser.

If you believe that, I have a bridge…..

over the last few years so the idea that coordinating this is beyond them doesn’t fly.

To overcome/elude Israeli/US surveillance requires substantial resources. As well as discipline. Over a long period. I can’t see Hamas mustering all of that on it’s lonesome.

  1. As Abbot said: “islam needs a reformation”.Good luck with that. There’s a simpler solution – Muslims in Australia should understand…

  2. Back at home, we have just attended a local Probus meeting where the guest speaker was a retired mostly-Middle East…

  3. Um, no it doesn’t. The Reformation was about getting back to the text and Augustinian meaning of the Bible, especially…

  4. I was surprised the National Council of Imams came out to say they were deeply troubled by the attack. Hardly…

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