No sanitized way of defeating Hamas, of defeating Evil


I wrote a couple of pieces for Quadrant Online (QoL)on the depraved attack on Israel by Hamas. They are here and here. Each was met with lots of intelligent comments as per usual on QoL  But, and it’s a big but, out came a few pro-Palestinian “trolls” (my description). The editor sensibly shut comments down. All communities might have a few scumbags whose warped worldview prevents them from unconditionally condemning evil when it stares them in the face. One does one’s best to avoid them. In this case, however, as the demonstrations at the Sydney Opera House and elsewhere showed, as the Greens and parts of the parliamentary and industrial wings of the Labor Party showed, as two Teals showed, the qualification “few” seriously understates the prevailing debilitating pluralism of Australia’s multi-cultural society. Old hatreds have been brought to our shores and have festered.

Go back to say the Hawke era. Not so long ago. I doubt there would have been much disquieting lack of national unity in distinguishing between good and evil. So it’s said, the greatest trick of the Devil is to convince the world he doesn’t exist.  Surely October 7 put that saying to bed. Probably not. A  history of horrors in the 20th century still leaves people unconvinced about the incarnation of evil; and many people celebrating evil as though it were good.

In one of my QoL blogs, referred to above, I canvassed the principle of proportionality in war.  It’s a good principle which says that civilians should not be targeted as an end in itself; and that civilian casualties should be kept to a minimum in achieving legitimate military objectives. In application, however, it provides very limited guidance. It’s as long as piece of string and, moreover, depends on who’s holding the string.

In Gaza, what is a legitimate target? Who is a civilian? Do you bomb a command centre in an apartment building when women and children still occupy the building – perhaps kept there deliberately as shields? I am just reading a book, Military Ethics by Stephen Coleman. He suggests that the number of civilians at risk should be measured against the importance of the military target. Sounds okay in theory. But in practice, who is to do the ‘objective’ measuring?

A further complication when Israel is involved is that proportionality is wielded by its enemies and their sympathisers, and by assorted hosts of university-educated useful idiots, as a weapon of war. Calls for a cease fire to protect Palestinian civilians against a disproportionate response by Israel are always made within a day or two of Israel being attacked. It’s has worked to one extent or another in the past. Not this time, I think.

Horrific as it is, it’s not just the defilement, the burnings, the beheadings, the raping of women to death, the killing of children, infants and babies. It’s the certainty that Hamas will search always for the opportunity to commit the same horrors again, and again, and again. The bloodlust of these monsters will never end. It’s simply insufferable. Israel must defeat them whatever risk this poses to civilians in Gaza. Think of the Axis powers in WWII. For example, it is estimated that up to half a million German civilians were killed from Allied bombing alone. Was that proportionate? Was Hiroshima and Nagasaki proportionate? Sometimes evil must be defeated. Often the cost is almost unbearably high. But what exactly is the alternative?


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Mak Siccar
Mak Siccar
October 21, 2023 3:55 pm
grunter
grunter
October 21, 2023 4:39 pm

A proportionate response is one that enables you to achieve your goal.

STJOHNOFGRAFTON
STJOHNOFGRAFTON
October 21, 2023 4:46 pm

I found the same problem with certain ‘trolls’ on QoL regarding the subject of the Gaza conflict. The tactic seemed to be to flood conversations with pro-Hamas-Palestinian propaganda. I’m glad the editor shut the thread down. It was impossible to have a rational discussion. Unfortunately some of the other posters did not seem to realise they were being had. Another phenomenon I’ve noticed is the watering down of terms. On one website which seems to take up the Palestinian cause the heading was:

The Israel-Hamas War…

This is a watering down of the reality. The heading should have been: The Israel-Islam War. That’s the reality, but few people seem to want to be seen as offending Muslims.

Cassie of Sydney
October 21, 2023 4:46 pm

I can’t convey how depressed, distressed and fearful Australian Jews feel. These “protests” are deliberately designed to intimidate and threaten Australian Jews.

These rallies have nothing to do with “Palestine”, and everything to do with Jew hatred

Jew hatred, sanctioned by the state governments and the NSWaffen police. Over 1400 Jews butchered and the NSW government allows Jew haters to congregate the celebrate the massacres.

C. Paul Barreira
C. Paul Barreira
October 21, 2023 5:23 pm

At first sight, this, re QoL, is odd. But having read the “comments” concerned another question returned to the back of my mind. Just suppose those 130,000 rockets said to be available to Hezbollah in Lebanon were fired. Further and as a result, suppose the state of Israel was destroyed. Would Australia welcome several hundred thousand Jewish survivors? On the question of the genealogy of Hamas’s genocidal raison d’être see the recent article by a fine historian, Jeffrey Herf, on Quillette: “The Ideology of Mass Murder: Hamas and the origins of the October 7th attacks” . Nothing’s a secret in these matters but they are exceptionally depressing. Nearly fifty years ago in an Honours History thesis I wrote on what the British Cabinet knew of German antisemitism during the years 1933-1939 (my supervisor was a survivor). And here we are in 2023 and the apologists are again in charge. There has been one change. Whereas the National Socialists endeavoured to keep their murderous labours a secret Hamas (and like-minded outfits) do not.

Cassie of Sydney
October 21, 2023 5:24 pm

I’ve just read the QoL comments, I’m left staggered at the blatant Jew hatred.

Damon
Damon
October 21, 2023 5:55 pm

Put ’em all in a gas chamber, and ask them if they want to recant. Loots of Christians have died for their religion. Maybe it’s their turn.

Vicki
Vicki
October 21, 2023 6:25 pm

I, too, was shocked at some of the comments in response to Peter’s last Quadrant article. However, one of the critics is a seasoned opinionated contrarian. And the comments were so clearly fixed & without humanity that I chose not to comment before the opportunity was closed. Didn’t think I would ever see that on Quadrant.

But in view of a protest of 15,000 pro-Palestinian rally in Sydney today – I see trouble ahead. We all must be prepared to stand by Israel & all our Jewish friends & neighbours.

Katzenjammer
Katzenjammer
October 21, 2023 6:47 pm

It was very sad that the German people had to be seriously inconvenienced during the Second World War, but the brutal bombing and invasion of German territory proceeded, without consulting them.

https://www.davidwarrenonline.com/2023/10/13/inconvenience/
.
One of those same trolls on QoL regularly posts the same foul comments on Spectator Flat White whenever Jews or Israel are the subject of an article, but that comment area at least turning a contributor invisible by blocking. Sometimes we need to stick our fingers in our ears to block out the muck.
.
@Cassie

I can’t convey how depressed, distressed and fearful Australian Jews feel.

In one of the interviews after the Holocaust, an ex resident of Germany said the most fearful thing was the silence of neighbours as the Nazis began their restrictions on Jews in the late 1930s – neigbours who had been friends or nodding acquaintences for years said nothing. Was it happening in their world, or was it not happening, was it consequential or was it inconsequential? I stayed home tonight rather than join with friends at a kayak club BBQ – in fear that someone would speak about it, and also in fear that no-one would.

132andBush
132andBush
October 21, 2023 6:48 pm

I noted this “flooding” phenomenon the other day re YouTube.
It seems to me to be very organised.

Katzenjammer
Katzenjammer
October 21, 2023 6:56 pm

It seems to me to be very organised.

Don’t assume it’s organised. It’s the personal opinions of millions of individuals after the campaign of decades of slanders about Israel and Zionism in international mainstream press and the UN, Amnesty, etc, etc. They have been successfully indoctrinated to really believe Israel is the most inhuman country on earth, and cunning Jewish political, financial and media power is the reason Jews get away with it.

duncanm
duncanm
October 21, 2023 8:17 pm

Cassie – be heartened by the absolute pasting childish fools like Wendy Bacon are receiving on social media.

They repulse the vast majority of decent Australians, but the Palidiots are very organised and noisy.

duncanm
duncanm
October 21, 2023 8:27 pm

Cassie,

I’m sure many people would like to join any gathering of Jews to show solidarity.. but not sure if a) they’re occurring, or b) when/where.

I do understand this could be a security problem, given the number of angry dickheads on the Pali side.

Rockdoctor
Rockdoctor
October 21, 2023 8:28 pm

My 2c worth.

Hamas doesn’t play by any rules of war. Perfidy and the war crimes we saw on 7 Oct seem to be the norm in Gaza, how do you combat that without collateral damage? The only solution is to hunt them out one by one and that’s going to be the icky part that Israel will have to deal with.

The Israelis will also not get a fair ride by the MSM as we are already witnessing. They need to hit hard and get moving. Momentum is an important part of battle.

That said there will be some against Hamas and the children who should never have to suffer these trials in a just world for their parents sins. I pity their suffering.

duncanm
duncanm
October 21, 2023 9:30 pm

Rockdoctor
Oct 21, 2023 8:28 PM
My 2c worth.

yup – I’m afraid Israel just has to ignore the noisy outside world and go hard and strong.

The real problem will be rooting out Hamas from their subterranean empire.

It ain’t going to be pretty.

Katzenjammer
Katzenjammer
October 21, 2023 11:44 pm

Why do self declared progressive leftist humanitarian supporters of Palestinians want them to remain subjected to the tyranny of kleptocratic Hamas. If they really cared, and were as informed as they insist they are, they would support Israel’s aim to dismantle the Hamas regime. Maybe it’s true as someone once said, everyone’s values can be upended simply by attacking Jews. So “gas the Jews” and let Hamas continue their rule of Palestinians is lauded in support of peace.

mem
mem
October 22, 2023 9:27 am

duncanm
Oct 21, 2023 8:17 PM
Cassie – be heartened by the absolute pasting childish fools like Wendy Bacon are receiving on social media.

Bacon, in my view is not childish. She is a committed “organizer” who has spent decades propagandizing, organizing and recruiting for “the cause”. She would be fully aware that once you get people hitting the streets for a cause (any cause, but particularly one that requires you to denounce accepted values), you get them to step over the line. They can then be radicalized and used. Read Stalin, Willi Munzenberg and the Seduction of the Intellectuals by Stephen Koch, later renamed “Double Lives”, to learn about the extensive and highly successful propaganda techniques developed by Munzenberg and as put into practice by Stalin and still followed his acolytes today.

Roger
Roger
October 22, 2023 9:55 am

Old hatreds have been brought to our shores and have festered.

For this we have the naivety/stupidity (take your pick) of our politicians to thank.

Even Bob Hawke failed to shut down the “Lebanese Concession” which Malcolm Fraser’s government put in place against sound public service advice at the time (1975).

Anti-semitism is a pillar of modern Arab identity. If you are going to embark on the fragile modernist multi-cultural project based on the principle of tolerance, you can’t invite in masses of people whose rejection of that principle defines them without endangering that project.

See Popper’s paradox of tolerance.

Bruce
Bruce
October 22, 2023 11:48 am

@ Roger:

“For this we have the naivety/stupidity (take your pick) of our politicians to thank.”

Nope! It is straight-up MALICE.

Ditto the “opinion-shapers of the LSM.

Muddy
Muddy
October 22, 2023 11:52 am

1). ‘Proportionality’ is a hindsight conversation, and one only engaged in by the losers. In the sense it is being used now, it is intended as a plaster-cast on both Israeli arms. To expect only one side of a war to have complete control of not only their own actions (reasonably, of course), but over those of their enemy (who places their own citizens in harm’s way as a deliberate tactic) is delusional.

2). A common variable here is ‘the media.’ (Not homogenous, I know, but for the sake of brevity, I’ll regard it as such).

Once unarmed Israeli citizens were slaughtered – let’s call it like it is; none of this ‘reignited conflict’ bullsh!t – Israel was destined to fight a multi-front war, arguably the most challenging foe being the homicide-enabling media.

We know from this present example, the Covidiocy, and many other historical events, that choosing a victim group and setting the population upon that group, is a proven method of gaining or maintaining political power.

The media is never one of those chosen victim groups, because they either choose, or facilitate the choosing of the victims. It is past time that changed.

I don’t know HOW to achieve this, but the integrity of the media needs to be seriously and publicly challenged, not in an ad hoc, defensive manner, but a sustained, planned, campaign. The object would be to knock the media – at least temporarily – out of their pattern of being the shot callers. Push them into a defensive posture, and then make it politically dodgy to publicly support them.

Rather than continuing as we have been by highlighting the lack of media objectivity when dealing with conservatives, the chief emphasis needs to be that media outlets are intentionally deceiving and manipulating their audience. They are doing so – sometimes using conservatives as the target, but that should be a secondary point – because they view their audience as, how do we be polite here … ‘malleable.’

Without the self-confidence/arrogance that comes from being unchallenged king-makers, the media will (in theory) be a less reliable tool for reptiles such as h@m@s. (Which, by the way (not ‘whom’ but which, for they are not human), I continue to refuse the acknowledge using their chosen name. Search for it online, and then decide if you want to continue to compliment them).

Muddy
Muddy
October 22, 2023 11:58 am

Etymology
Hamas is an acronym of the Arabic phrase ???? ???????? ????????? or ?arakah al-Muq?wamah al-?Isl?miyyah, meaning “Islamic Resistance Movement”. This acronym, HMS, was later glossed in the Hamas Covenant[95] by the Arabic word ?am?s (????) which itself means “zeal“, “strength“, or “bravery“.

[Yes, it’s wiki].

Do you choose to call the murderers of toddlers brave and strong? Child-killers, rapists and sick fxcks who burn civilians alive? We have derogatory nicknames for politicians and celebrities we don’t respect, but subhumans who get off on slaughtering unarmed civilians are courageous in or eyes?
FFS.

bollux
bollux
October 22, 2023 12:34 pm

All these pro Palestinian protestors should be fenced off, herded into containers and dumped at sea. The world would be better for it. How long are we going to grant our hard won freedoms to savages and their supporters.

Roger
Roger
October 22, 2023 1:07 pm

Nope! It is straight-up MALICE.

For all their faults, neither Fraser nor Hawke were anti-Australian in their sentiments.

Unlike Whitlam or Albanese.

areff
areff
October 22, 2023 3:40 pm

Didn’t think I would ever see that on Quadrant.

Nor did I — or the need to shut down a thread, but there was no choice.

Worth noting is that this wasn’t the sort of censorship one sees in the Nine rags, Guardian, wherever the fashionable Left roosts. In those precincts, your offense/racist/sexist/climate-denier comment never gets out of the starting box.

Commenters are allowed one comment — pro or con — and that’s it. No more dragging threads (fingers crossed) into pools of spleen and incoherence.

areff
areff
October 22, 2023 3:55 pm

Just moved on AAP:

The president of a Detroit synagogue has been found stabbed to death outside her home in the Lafayette Park neighbourhood, police say.

The death of Samantha Woll, 40, an adviser to Democratic politicians and president of Isaac Agree Downtown Synagogue, was also confirmed by the synagogue on Facebook.

“We are shocked and saddened to learn of the unexpected death of Samantha Woll, our Board President,” the synagogue said. “At this point we do not have more information, but will share more when it becomes available.”

The Detroit Police Department said Woll’s body was found on Saturday in the 1300 block of Joliet Place in Detroit, where a trail of blood led to her home.

By Saturday evening, police had still not determined a possible motive for the crime. But Detroit Police Chief James E. White said the department had mobilised numerous resources in its investigation.

“Understandably, this crime leaves many unanswered questions,” White said in a statement to Reuters.

He asked the public to be patient and not jump to conclusions before authorities are able to piece together what happened.

“It is important that no conclusions be drawn until all of the available facts are reviewed,” Smith said…..

This unfortunate woman, possibly killed because she’s Jewish or, given it’s Detroit, because of the crime problem which her fellow Democrat legislators, councillors and judges have preferred to brush aside with “root cause” rationalisations rather than arresting and incarcerating.

Jock
Jock
October 22, 2023 5:08 pm

Just saw this in the UK Mail (an unusual source)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12653633/Fascinating-charts-Gaza-Strips-demographics.html

The Arabs can certainly breed.

dover0beach
Admin
October 22, 2023 5:40 pm

Test

Katzenjammer
Katzenjammer
October 22, 2023 7:46 pm

From some of the reports, it sounds like they were trying to outdo each other in inventive savagery –

A baby was cut out of a pregnant woman and beheaded and then the mother was beheaded

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12653435/Israeli-morgue-worker-says-horrors-inflicted-Hamass-victims-worse-Holocaust-including-decapitated-pregnant-woman-beheaded-unborn-child.html

Muddy
Muddy
October 22, 2023 8:35 pm

Israeli media reported on October 19 that [h@m@s] terrorists were fueled by the amphetamine-like drug captagon as they rampaged through southern Israel on October 7. The pills were allegedly discovered inside the pockets of deceased terrorists, who used the illicit narcotic to remain calm and alert while attacking Israeli civilians.

FDD.
[Via the same link above, ‘Eyeless in Gaza’ paints an interesting picture of the intelligence context in the region over the last 12 months or so].

Rockdoctor
Rockdoctor
October 22, 2023 9:20 pm

A baby was cut out of a pregnant woman and beheaded and then the mother was beheaded

Mate with a Thai mrs said this was doing the rounds on Thai news a week or more ago. I pointed out last week how our MSM has ignored the slaughter of Asian (Mostly Thai & Philos), sub continentals and African workers on said farms. I don’t mean this to discount the deaths to Israeli citizens but it comprehensively debunks the lie that only Israelis were the target.

Besides this sort of barbaric behaviour has no place in the modern world and those who were involved need to be exterminated, I have met with some guys who saw same in Rwanda. Their stories were harrowing.

Katzenjammer
Katzenjammer
October 23, 2023 12:21 am

it comprehensively debunks the lie that only Israelis were the target

No-one said the foul marauders asked for passport identification or circumcision status before their despising bloodlust. Anyone within the areas of Israel they could reach would do. They’re not fussy. Dismembering while alive is fun, so why waste time discriminating.

it comprehensively debunks the lie that only Israelis were the target

It says much more though about the perpetuators.

Kneel
Kneel
October 23, 2023 11:56 am

“I’m sure many people would like to join any gathering of Jews to show solidarity.. but not sure if a) they’re occurring, or b) when/where.”

Indeed.
Here’s the thing – it’s not the first person to show support, it’s the second and third.
Crowds are funny. The first person might be laughed at, but when the second and third join in, it soon becomes a contagion and many more will join in, no longer fearing being the first, being alone, being “on the outer”.
This is how the covidiocy was allowed to continue – no-one really knew just how many were turning up, the MSM downplayed etc, so people feared joining in.

How do we get the info “out there” for a protest, say, outside parliament house in Shitney and other state parliaments? A pro-Israeli one.
Not sure – maybe Aussie Wire can help?
Maybe Sky News Oz can help?
Social media? (which platform? X/Twitter is likely the only one to allow it, but I am not a user there and wouldn’t see it. Facebook is likely to get the most positive responses, but also the most likely to suppress any such attempt)
Other online like The Cat, QoL et al?

Maybe we need to organise a letter writing “storm” to Daily Telegraph, Nien News etc (ABC would be pointless, but probably worthwhile doing anyway) to let them know there are a lot of us out here that support Israel in this matter, that we are the majority and we find the H@m@s supporters attitude towards our fellow Australians repugnant, that we won’t just pull our heads in this time, that we will stand up and be counted.

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