New Catallaxy

For Whom the Bell Tolls

We are constantly wondering about the inability of centre-right parties, particularly the Liberal and National parties here in Australia, of accurately reflecting their constituency in their policies and representing them during their terms in power. I don’t want to speculate why this is the case but the following two figures from the US and UK are instructive:

The 2016 election in the US

and

The 2019 UK election

These two figures demonstrate two things at the very least if the same or similar holds true in Australia (if anyone has seen a figure in this style for Australia please link to it in the comments). Firstly, that any centre-right party must, economically, be middle of the road at a minimum. By all means, a policy or decision here or there can tend to the right but the overall economic position the government takes must be broadly centrist. Secondly, in the social dimension, the centre-right parties must be, at the very least, as ‘traditional’ as the centre-left parties are ‘progressive’ overall. This can allow for a even more ‘traditional’ position in this or that policy area while conceding, where necessary, a more middle of the road position in another, but only as a prudential measure with the principled end still in sight when conditions on the ground improve.

No other position makes principled or practical sense. The figures indicate where the conservative electorate are and that is firmly in the upper half of the social dimension both in the UK/US and, I believe, the same is true in Australia. While on the economic dimension, either in the centre (in the US) or leaning left ( in the UK) and probably somewhere in between in Australia.

Until the Liberal and National parties come to terms with this, their pandering to the electorate on the left of the social values dimension will only alienate the bulk of their conservative voters, while their right-leaning economic policies will leave the progressive voters cold. They, as they stand, are not appealing to any substantial segment of the electorate, let alone their natural constituency. The sooner this changes the better.

dover0beach

83 responses to “For Whom the Bell Tolls”

  1. duncanm Avatar
    duncanm

    Are the tories really that ‘right’ (capitalism, minimal social spending, etc) in the UK?

    4
  2. Shy Ted Avatar
    Shy Ted

    Here ya go

    13
  3. Bruce Avatar
    Bruce

    Oz “news” found on a Canadian website:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLrz8Ft-GNI&t=29s

    Poor fellow, my country, indeed.

    3
  4. Jannie Avatar
    Jannie

    The figure for the Uk doesn’t make sense. It conflates libertarian and progressives, which is just wrong. Traditional social values are not authoritarian. And it has Brexit people as Leftist authoritarians.

    This looks like University people are involved. Shy Ted’s figure makes more sense.

    17
  5. John Avatar
    John

    At the last federal election, the people that deserted the LNP did not vote for the so-called freedom parties. Instead they voted for the extreme leftists (Teals, Greens, ALP). That is probably why the LNP persists with its climate policies and other, leftist woke causes. To do otherwise, would hand the left a landslide and the LNP would be wiped out as another minor rump Party indistinguishable from the other freedom parties scavanging for the scraps. The electorate as a whole must significantly seriously support freedom policies before you’ll get the LNP to move to the right.

    7
  6. Lurx Avatar
    Lurx

    Thanx Bruce

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLrz8Ft-GNI&t=29s

    Excellent he proclaims…..
    Strewth….God help us….

  7. Cassie of Sydney Avatar
    Cassie of Sydney

    “Until the Liberal and National parties come to terms with this, their pandering to the electorate on the left of the social values dimension will only alienate the bulk of their conservative voters, while their right-leaning economic policies will leave the progressive voters cold. They, as they stand, are not appealing to any substantial segment of the electorate, let alone their natural constituency. The sooner this changes the better”

    Except that beginning in 2013 when they won power, and continuing right through to May 2022, the Coalition refused to pursue any traditional right-leaning economic policies. None whatsoever. One of Abbott’s first decisions should have been the abandonment of the NDIS, or some serious restructuring of it. But no, Abbott liked it..and look at what it’s become…a bloated, tax guzzling
    leviathan. It’s a bit rich for them to now go on about “budget repair”, considering what’s ensued over the last three years under Scumbag.

    24
  8. Mater Avatar
    Mater

    When you start a study with the precondition that a negative attitude towards black people represents a traditional right wing view, things are always going to be skewed.

    A less biased (stereotyped) understanding of the left/right divide might help the results. The authors probably still consider Hitler to be far right, and draw their definitions accordingly.

    It wasn’t the ‘Right’ in Australia who had the term ‘racial purity’ in their party platform…unless you consider the ALP to be Right Wing.

    21
  9. 2dogs Avatar
    2dogs

    Actual policy lessons on this for the LNP:

    1. Stay away from Woke nonsense.

    2. Support workers’ cooperatives.

    2
  10. Bluey Avatar
    Bluey

    Talking to working class people I know, and many of the more professional, a Labor right government sounds like it’s close to ideal.
    We don’t get a Labor right government when Labor gets into power though, it’s infested with people who have never achieved anything other than a political career and the consequence of that is government that’s not got a clue how to actually govern for the bulk of Australia.

    14
  11. John Avatar
    John

    We don’t get a Labor right government when Labor gets into power though

    Indeed we don’t. But it’s the perception that counts. At the moment Albo is perceived benign middle of the road and all the chaos around him attributed to the departing LNP.

    4
  12. dover0beach Avatar
    dover0beach

    The figure for the Uk doesn’t make sense. It conflates libertarian and progressives, which is just wrong. Traditional social values are not authoritarian. And it has Brexit people as Leftist authoritarians.

    People are paying too much attention to the labels. Take the social dimension of both graphs, with libertarian/ progressive and authoritarian/ traditional as the ends of each pole. If you opposed abortion you appear on the latter end, while if you do not for any reason you appear on the former.
    What figure two show is that while Brexit voters are as socially conservative as the ordinary Conserative voter (while they are considerably more socially conservative than the typical Labour voter), and that they are considerably more economically interventionist than the ordinary Conservative voter while being slightly less economically interventionist then the average Labour voter.

    2
  13. dover0beach Avatar
    dover0beach

    When you start a study with the precondition that a negative attitude towards black people represents a traditional right wing view, things are always going to be skewed.

    A less biased (stereotyped) understanding of the left/right divide might help the results.

    I don’t think this really matters. The questions could always be improved but I think in the aggregate this gives a reasonable representation of the constituencies and the distribution of the national electorates.

    1
  14. Mater Avatar
    Mater

    People are paying too much attention to the labels. Take the social dimension of both graphs, with libertarian/ progressive and authoritarian/ traditional as the ends of each pole.

    “Authoritarian/traditional” = Conservative voters? Those who want out from under the Government yoke?

    “Libertarian/Progressive” = Socialist voters? Those who want to live under Government control?

    No, these blokes are mixed up. Consequently, the graphs are all over the show.

    9
  15. Rabz Avatar
    Rabz

    “Authoritarian/traditional” = Conservative voters? Those who want out from under the Government yoke?
    “Libertarian/Progressive” = Socialist voters? Those who want to live under Government control?

    Exactly. What a joke.

    their right-leaning economic policies

    What right-leaning economic policies – Jobkeeper? Toy trains? Net Year Zero?

    I’d be very surprised if there is a single government (at any level) in this country that isn’t inflicting extreme collectivist economic and social policies on their electorates, en masse.

    Economic and social conservatives have been completely disenfranchised in this country and in the UK. The only hope for the US would be the re-election of Fatty Trump. Given the damage that stinking illegitimate ol’ syphilitic geriatric and his puppeteers have managed to inflict on the US in barely two years, I wouldn’t like Fatty Trump’s chances – especially now that elections there are effectively a sham, which we’ll no doubt see again in the mid-terms.

    9
  16. Cassie of Sydney Avatar
    Cassie of Sydney

    The only light on the hill (pardon the analogy) for conservatism, libertarianism, and right-wing politics was Donald Trump’s tenure as POTUS. Otherwise, across the English speaking world, it’s a barren desert of darkness and nothing, like a void, no achievements whatsoever, be it on economic issues or on social and cultural values. I’m beginning to think it’s pointless voting for any right of centre party, and this specifically applies to the Liberal and National Parties here in Australia. Look at the UK, the “Conservatives” (cough) have been in power since 2010 and in 2019, they won an election in a landslide. Yet it’s all been squandered. They’ve done nothing with that goodwill and majority. That fat slob Boris squandered an eighty-seat majority, constituencies that had never voted Tory voted for him in 2019 and yet we see both legal and illegal immigration out of control, Boris adopted net zero emissions and pursued a disastrous renewables policy, so much so that over the coming winter people are likely to freeze to death. And in the UK, the country that gave us Edmund Burke, you have a completely politicised police force and you can now be arrested for liking a meme on social media, that’s how far the UK has fallen.

    Here in Oz we had a Coalition government for almost nine years, a government that did nothing on social and cultural values and did little on economic policies. If you want an example of a Liberal government that had zero values, look at the unlamented Stephen Marshmallow’s “Liberal” government in SA. He presided over a government that wasn’t just Labor lite, it was “Green” and pointless, so pointless that voters saw through it and elected a real Labor government in a landslide.

    I remember before the May election receiving a flyer in the post from Liberal Green Dave Sharma here in Wentworth. This is the same “Liberal” who was part of a wet cabal that persuaded Morrison to ban offshore gas and oil mining here in NSW, this is the same Liberal who helped persuade Morrison to adopt net zero emissions, this is the same Liberal who supported Donald Trump being booted from social media, this is the same Liberal who crossed the floor to vote against religious freedom, this is the same Liberal who joined with Matt Turd Kean and Rent Zimmerboy to smear Katherine Deves and call for her to be disendorsed, all because she spoke the truth about “transgenderism”. Reading the flyer in the week before the 21 May election, it was clear he was getting desperate because the flyer decided to focus on “economic issues” and how the Liberals are better economic managers and are better for businesses. Given the debt amassed over the last two and a half years, given the lockdowns which crucified small and medium sized business across the country, I laughed out loud reading it. The brutal truth is that Sharma was no different to Spender (and in some respects worse) because he lacked any values whatsoever, be they social, cultural and economic. And when you have no values, politically you will die.

    31
  17. Roger Avatar
    Roger

    Blue Labour or Red Tory.

    Either is better than the centre-left Uniparty.

    4
  18. dover0beach Avatar
    dover0beach

    “Authoritarian/traditional” = Conservative voters? Those who want out from under the Government yoke?

    A problem here is the idea that a conservative voter who, say, wants to ban abortion or maintain marriage laws as that between a man and a woman, positions that until only recent were considered traditional and uncontroversial, cannot be considered conservative because conservative herein isn’t to be understood as a substantive position on this or that policy area but only with respect to where that substantive position falls on the “Those who want out from under the Government yoke” spectrum. That is a position that has only appeared in centre right politics in the post-WW2 period and reached its zenith in the 90s and is on the downslope since last decade.

    The other thing is that both figures are showing where actual party voters appear on the political values quadrant. They aren’t inferring the party affiliation from the values themselves.

    1
  19. Roger Avatar
    Roger

    They, as they stand, are not appealing to any substantial segment of the electorate…

    At 32% of the primary vote, neither are Labor.

    7
  20. Roger Avatar
    Roger

    is

  21. Dot Avatar
    Dot

    That financial times infographic caption is thoroughly unmoored from reality.

    1
  22. Mater Avatar
    Mater

    The other thing is that both figures are showing where actual party voters appear on the political values quadrant. They aren’t inferring the party affiliation from the values themselves.

    True, but if the definition of the axis are confused, it matters not. It’s a misrepresentation, regardless of whether or not they infer party affiliation.

    Take answers about ‘respect for personal property’ or ‘personal responsibility’. Does the answer of a traditional conservative register towards ‘Authoritarian/Traditional’ or does it lean towards ‘Libertarian/Progression’. They are strong conservative values, but could easily register on the Progressive end of the axis.

    If you could put together an accurate representation under these conflated headings, you’re a better man than me.

    3
  23. Ed Case Avatar
    Ed Case

    It wasn’t the ‘Right’ in Australia who had the term ‘racial purity’ in their party platform…unless you consider the ALP to be Right Wing.

    The ALP has always been Right Wing and when the voters tire of Liberalism, that’s where they head:
    The right wing Labor Party.
    Yeah, I know, then the brand new Labor Government sticks it right up the Labor voting LumpenProletariat that the Liberal Party have been mollycoddling for years, and …
    … there’s the reason why your Conservative Party will never succeed,
    because, where are the voters going to be found?

  24. Mater Avatar
    Mater

    The ALP has always been Right Wing and when the voters tire of Liberalism, that’s where they head:
    The right wing Labor Party.

    Until you move to the second point in the party platform:

    1. The cultivation of an Australian sentiment based upon the maintenance of racial purity, and the development in Australia of an enlightened and self-reliant community.

    2. The securing of the full results of their industry by all wealth producers by the collective ownership of all means of production, distribution and exchange, to be obtained through the extension of the industrial and economic functions of the Federal and State and local governing bodies.

    5
  25. dover0beach Avatar
    dover0beach

    Take answers about ‘respect for personal property’ or ‘personal responsibility’. Does the answer of a traditional conservative register towards ‘Authoritarian/Traditional’ or does it lean towards ‘Libertarian/Progression’. They are strong conservative values, but could easily register on the Progressive end of the axis.

    But they don’t. The graphs indicate a good correlation between what we would expect re values and party affiliation.

  26. Ed Case Avatar
    Ed Case

    It wasn’t the ‘Right’ in Australia who had the term ‘racial purity’ in their party platform…unless you consider the ALP to be Right Wing.
    The ALP never had racial purity in their platform, stop being an idiot.
    The Chinese Exclusion Act of 1906 was broadly supported.
    From then on it was a stumblingblock for non Labor and it served to keep parts of the Working Class on the ALP plantation.

  27. Ed Case Avatar
    Ed Case

    Until you move to the second point in the party platform:

    1. The cultivation of an Australian sentiment based upon the maintenance of racial purity, and the development in Australia of an enlightened and self-reliant community.

    Sure.
    That’s called Paternalism, which is Right Wing.
    Dumber voters love lap up that stuff, as we saw on May 21.

  28. Mater Avatar
    Mater

    The ALP never had racial purity in their platform, stop being an idiot.

    Yes, Ed, I just made it up.

    1
  29. Mater Avatar
    Mater

    2nd point, Ed!
    You know, about collective ownership, etc.
    That left wing stuff, that the voters just lap up.

    2
  30. Dot Avatar
    Dot

    Traditional social values (you should not have kids out of wedlock) are not authoritarian (one child policy).

    Libertarian social values (fully informed, freely consenting adults can live and let live) are not progressive (we will hide your kids from you and give them puberty blockers).

    You can see right through a Nolan chart when a lefty does one, they make out far leftists to be freedom loving and a nearly perfect freedom loving conservative out as a “Nazi”.

    It is so ridiculous, like calling the UK Conservative party extreme right wingers on economic policies.

    4
  31. Mater Avatar
    Mater

    But they don’t.

    How do you know that Labour voters aren’t expressing a desire for personal responsibility and a respect for personal property…and being put down towards the other end.

    This stuff looks like the paper which determined that 95% of scientists believe in global warming.

    Too much room for doubt for me to give it much credence. If they can’t get the labels right…

    6
  32. Ed Case Avatar
    Ed Case

    60 years ago we wouldn’t even be arguing that the ALP isn’t right wing.
    Then the Environmental Movement happened.
    That was a Left Wing thing that threatened the interests of the Bosses arse kissing ALP, so they moved in, took it over, and destroyed it.
    Some might see that as a failure for the Liberal Party, but you’ve gotta look at this long term.
    Genuine Environmentalists still vote Liberal or preference Liberal and when the tide eventually turns, Labor and the Right won’t have much left.

  33. Ed Case Avatar
    Ed Case

    Yes, Ed, I just made it up.
    Touche!
    Labor paid it lip service anyway and dumped it when expedient.
    2 generations later, who cares?
    Are you suggesting that you’ll be able to build a conservative political Party by appealing to Wokesters over what was in the Labor Party platform when their Granddad was a kid?

    1
  34. dover0beach Avatar
    dover0beach

    Traditional social values (you should not have kids out of wedlock) are not authoritarian (one child policy).

    If the traditional social value (you should not have kids out of wedlock) is reflected in government social policy it will without doubt be considered authoritarian.

    2
  35. Ed Case Avatar
    Ed Case

    2nd point, Ed!
    You know, about collective ownership, etc.
    That left wing stuff, that the voters just lap up.
    No 2nd point, Mater.
    The old ALP Platform was Fascism, a Right Wing bosses ideology which was quite well regarded until the late 1930s.
    And, yeah, plenty of voters still lap it up.

    What’s Medicare and the NDIS if not Fascism?

  36. dover0beach Avatar
    dover0beach

    How do you know that Labour voters aren’t expressing a desire for personal responsibility and a respect for personal property…and being put down towards the other end.

    We do know because a substantial minority of Labour voters in the UK appear in the upper half of the social dimension axis. Less so with respect to private property but I imagine their other answers relating to the economic dimension are shifting their position leftward.

  37. Dot Avatar
    Dot

    I almost pity the people who think Jacob Rees Mogg or Anne Widdecombe are “extreme right wingers!” or dumber still, “National Socialist”.

    3
  38. Mater Avatar
    Mater

    Dover,
    My point (in short) is that something so confused in it’s construction, can’t be trusted to deliver meaningful results.

    I’d be very loathe to construct a party platform from its conclusions.

    5
  39. Cassie of Sydney Avatar
    Cassie of Sydney

    “I almost pity the people who think Jacob Rees Mogg or Anne Widdecombe are “extreme right wingers!” or dumber still, “National Socialist”.”

    I attended CPAC……so that makes me “far-right”. Even Peter Dutton thinks I’m “extreme right”.

    13
  40. Ed Case Avatar
    Ed Case

    Rees Mogg is a fraud and Widdecombe is a thin skinned old bitch always ready to call in the lawyers.
    Here’s the reality:
    The Right Wing was always associated with Money Politics, then Hitler gave it a really bad name.
    So, nobody wants to be called Right Wing.
    Which suits the [Right Wing] Labor Party to a tee.
    Their shills and Useful Idiots can spend their time on Blogs discussing how the Liberal Party should be more Right Wing, while reminding people not to vote for them.

    1
  41. Ed Case Avatar
    Ed Case

    Even Peter Dutton thinks I’m “extreme right”.
    Beats me how you know what Peter Dutton thinks, but Reactionary is a fair description, judging by the tone and content of your commenting.

    2
  42. Cassie of Sydney Avatar
    Cassie of Sydney

    “Beats me how you know what Peter Dutton thinks, “

    Because, Dick Ed, he said it on television last week.

    6
  43. Mater Avatar
    Mater

    Honestly Ed, interacting with you is like masturbating with a cheese grater. Vaguely amusing, but generally painful.
    There is a limit. That limit has been reached for tonight.

    6
  44. Eyrie Avatar
    Eyrie

    The economic views thing is just because most people love themselves some OPM.

    1
  45. Ed Case Avatar
    Ed Case

    What is amusing about putting your dick in a cheese grater?

    2
  46. dover0beach Avatar
    dover0beach

    Cassie, when I look at the figures I see all the action in the left hand quadrant and upper middle for conservatives. When I think of the federal and state LNP I see a party situating itself in the lower half somewhere in the middle to the right, in the least inhabited quadrant.

    1
  47. Bluey Avatar
    Bluey

    Cassie of Sydneysays:
    October 11, 2022 at 8:45 pm
    “I almost pity the people who think Jacob Rees Mogg or Anne Widdecombe are “extreme right wingers!” or dumber still, “National Socialist”.”

    I attended CPAC……so that makes me “far-right”. Even Peter Dutton thinks I’m “extreme right”.

    Cassie, given Trump is now considered far right, when he’s realistically of left wing of 20 or so years ago says it all. His being elected was never about him, more sheer frustration with the prevailing political gestalt. The frustration with that by ordinary Americans is what got him up.

    I would expect anyone who replaces him to do much of what he was accused of, but didn’t do.

    2
  48. dover0beach Avatar
    dover0beach

    My point (in short) is that something so confused in it’s construction, can’t be trusted to deliver meaningful results.

    I’d be very loathe to construct a party platform from its conclusions.

    If you improved the questions I still think you would get roughly the same results; the distributions might be a little different but I think it gets the electorate largely right.

  49. Boambee John Avatar
    Boambee John

    Compare the pair.

    Ed Casesays:
    October 11, 2022 at 8:07 pm
    It wasn’t the ‘Right’ in Australia who had the term ‘racial purity’ in their party platform…unless you consider the ALP to be Right Wing.
    The ALP never had racial purity in their platform, stop being an idiot.

    Ed Casesays:
    October 11, 2022 at 8:10 pm
    Until you move to the second point in the party platform:

    1. The cultivation of an Australian sentiment based upon the maintenance of racial purity, and the development in Australia of an enlightened and self-reliant community.

    Trips over his own Dick in just three minutes.

    1
  50. Boambee John Avatar
    Boambee John

    Ed Casesays:
    October 11, 2022 at 8:53 pm
    Even Peter Dutton thinks I’m “extreme right”.
    Beats me how you know what Peter Dutton thinks, but Reactionary is a fair description, judging by the tone and content of your commenting.

    Do try to keep up to date, Richard Cranium. Dutton actually said those words about CPAC attendees.

    3
  51. dover0beach Avatar
    dover0beach

    I almost pity the people who think Jacob Rees Mogg or Anne Widdecombe are “extreme right wingers!” or dumber still, “National Socialist”.

    Mogg probably sits somewhere in the upper right quadrant toward the upper left with about a quarter of the Conservative party voter. In terms of the national electorate, he is near the right pole.

  52. mem Avatar
    mem

    At the last federal election I voted against the Libs. Why? Because of Morrison setting up national cabinet, because of promoting mandates whilst saying it was a state responsibility and the big one, because they went whole hog on the renewable energy climate change bullshit. I didn’t vote for another party I voted against the Libs because they treated their supporters like the proverbial dogs’ excreta.

    18
  53. Ed Case Avatar
    Ed Case

    Good on you for being selfish.
    When this travesty of a Government finally falls, tally up what it has cost you to vote Morrison out, then multiply that by 26,000,000.

    1
  54. Bruce of Newcastle Avatar
    Bruce of Newcastle

    I suspect the bottom graph is rubbish. This is why:

    2022 Republican Voters Being Undercounted Again: Trafalgar (11 Oct)

    A top independent pollster says Republican voters will be undercounted in the lead-up to the 2022 midterm elections next month – which will likely skew polls in favor of Democrats.

    “These submerged voters aren’t answering polls, they aren’t putting stickers on their cars, or signs in their yard—they’re not even posting on social media,” said Robert Cahaly, the head of the Trafalgar Group, in a Daily Wire podcast – noting that Republicans may not be inclined to reveal their political views after President Biden’s Sept. 1 speech targeting “MAGA Republicans.”

    “They are underwater. They’re not saying a word to anybody until election day.”

    Cahaly added that voters should not trust mainstream polls in the coming weeks – citing previous polls weighted towards Democrats.

    “Polls have two purposes,” he said. “They’re either to reflect the electorate, or they’re to affect the electorate—and too many of these media and university-based polls are designed to affect the electorate and are trying to create a false narrative quite often when there’s not one.”

    The same is going on the in the UK and here to lesser extent. Conservative voters are hiding from the intolerant fascists who persecute them. You’d be nuts to answer a poll these days.

    Consequently I think the bottom graph is skewed heavily left for the blue sections. And the arrows are ridiculous.

    The top graph from 2016 is a little more accurate as the full weight didn’t fall on us until Trump actually won.

    My message to Libs and Nats is the polls are rubbish, your base isn’t answering them. Nor are they voting for you because you’re chasing lefty policies they hate. Do get a brain please, before you extinct yourselves.

    10
  55. Anchor What Avatar
    Anchor What

    We know that politics has failed bigly. Don’t need a graph to tell us that.
    The climate and energy fiasco is all the evidence we need. But add the covid fascism and assorted anti-enterprise moves (gas exploration?) and the picture is grim indeed.
    But it’s not just because politicians are dumb bastards. Some are, but it’s more organic or cultural than that.
    The political failure is downstream of media failure.

    7
  56. Anchor What Avatar
    Anchor What

    Dover, could you limit Head Case to two comments per thread?

    1
  57. Bootstrapper Avatar
    Bootstrapper

    What I see in these metrics, is the pontifications of Spengler’s “dominant minority”. It’s an attempt to force the problems to fit their preferred solutions, rather than adjusting their solutions to respond intelligently to the problems. It says more about how far into collapse our society is, than anything about their position on the issues of the day.

    3
  58. Cassie of Sydney Avatar
    Cassie of Sydney

    “The political failure is downstream of media failure.”

    Yep.

    2
  59. duncanm Avatar
    duncanm

    Ed.

    This country shall remain forever the home of the descendants of those people who came here in peace in order to establish in the South Seas an outpost of the British race

    and

    We have 25 years at most to populate this country before the yellow races are down on us

    Not ALP, nothing to see here.

    1
  60. Rabz Avatar
    Rabz

    Do get a brain please, before you extinct yourselves.

    As the first option is clearly impossible, they’ll take the latter option. How this is a bad thing is beyond me. As noted, we’re currently disenfranchised anyway and I’m not going to vote for political parties or candidates that are indistinguishable from greenfilth.

    6
  61. dover0beach Avatar
    dover0beach

    Consequently I think the bottom graph is skewed heavily left for the blue sections. And the arrows are ridiculous.

    The top graph from 2016 is a little more accurate as the full weight didn’t fall on us until Trump actually won.

    Let’s say this is right, and the distribution on the plot is more or less correct on the y-axis but should move to the right slightly on the x-axis. That still means that the centre right parties are drastically misrepresenting their constituency on social issues, but only less so on the economic issues. And it still means that constituency is less enamoured with neoliberalism than the party.

    2
  62. Slim Cognito Avatar
    Slim Cognito

    This must be the first Cat thread with a Metallica title.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNybmS3xNAQ

    1
  63. dover0beach Avatar
    dover0beach

    Slim, when you see Enter Sandman as a title, run to your bomb shelter.

    1
  64. Big_Nambas Avatar
    Big_Nambas

    Dover, please don’t limit Head Case, I don’t want to loose one of my main providers of comedy skits.

    1
  65. Kneel Avatar
    Kneel

    “What is amusing about putting your dick in a cheese grater?”

    It’s the difference between comedy and tragedy – comedy is when you cut your arm off, tragedy is when I nick myself shaving.

    Perspective, IOW.

  66. Bruce of Newcastle Avatar
    Bruce of Newcastle

    That still means that the centre right parties are drastically misrepresenting their constituency on social issues, but only less so on the economic issues

    Other way ’round Dover. The blue blobs on the bottom graph are on the left side of economic policy. Just where you’d think Teals would sit: wet libs aren’t likely to be as avoiding of polls as MAGA people – who aren’t talking to pollsters at all.

    Again I suspect there may be definitional issues too – since the idea that Brexiteers are to the left of wet Tories is very hard to believe. We’ve already seen that the Left regards the Right as fascists, despite fascism being a left wing “ism”. I would not be surprised if the graph is skewed by miscategorization.

    3
  67. The Beer whisperer Avatar
    The Beer whisperer

    The figure for the Uk doesn’t make sense. It conflates libertarian and progressives, which is just wrong. Traditional social values are not authoritarian. And it has Brexit people as Leftist authoritarians

    You can’t expect them to use measurable, relevant spectra, or else how else would they come up with false narratives appearing scientific?

    When I ask for definitions, 1 in a 100 will produce them, only for me to tear it to shreds. Funnily enough, only actual communists try and back up their claims

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  68. dover0beach Avatar
    dover0beach

    The figure for the Uk doesn’t make sense. It conflates libertarian and progressives,

    On the social dimension they very definitely are similar.

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  69. dover0beach Avatar
    dover0beach

    Other way ’round Dover. The blue blobs on the bottom graph are on the left side of economic policy. Just where you’d think Teals would sit: wet libs aren’t likely to be as avoiding of polls as MAGA people – who aren’t talking to pollsters at all.

    I don’t think that is true. MAGA voters are very likely to be to the left, economically, of neoliberal right that was open borders, trade, etc. I think people are kidding themselves if they believe that the majority of the conservative constituency falls on the right hand side of the y-axis.

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  70. Bazinga Avatar
    Bazinga

    Dutton actually said those words about CPAC attendees.

    Well he just lost my vote.
    j/k they haven’t had it for a while now and aren’t likely to in the future either.

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  71. Bruce of Newcastle Avatar
    Bruce of Newcastle

    MAGA voters are very likely to be to the left, economically

    Ok so there’s no hope. None at all.
    Kiss our arses goodbye, it was a nice civilization while it lasted.

    1
  72. 2dogs Avatar
    2dogs

    Ok so there’s no hope. None at all.

    If you don’t intend to just go and slit your wrists, there are some good compromises to be had.

    Workers’ cooperatives will make many more people business owners and thus change their perspective.

    It’s possible to have Rawlsian equality for a lot less tax than what we are paying now.

  73. Dot Avatar
    Dot

    It’s possible to have Rawlsian equality for a lot less tax than what we are paying now.

    I used to think so.

    Now only Epictetus consoles me.

    OPM and moral righteousness will make a good social democracy as bad as any other kind of democracy.

    Civil rights. Efficient government.

    Nope, gotta grift and self actualise yourselves as the foil to the demons you paint your rivals as.

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  74. 2dogs Avatar
    2dogs

    Dot, I am certainly not proposing compromise with the grifters who claim to represent the people who vote left. I am proposing compromise with the people who vote left themselves.

  75. John Brumble Avatar
    John Brumble

    Dover, the definitions are completely farked. I don’t disagree that conservative parties are missing the constituency, but these graphs are just “garbage-in-garbage-out”.

    2
  76. Dot Avatar
    Dot

    the grifters who claim to represent the people who vote left

    I used to view them as evil, perhaps as dragons, demons or goblins.

    Truth be told, they’re parasites.

    The only mythical creature that is accurate would be vampires. In reality, they’re like locusts, rats or ticks.

    I am all for cutting a deal, I have been saying the same thing for ages. But how?!

  77. 2dogs Avatar
    2dogs

    I am all for cutting a deal, I have been saying the same thing for ages. But how?!

    Bypass the grifters and just appeal directly to the left voter.

    Workers’ cooperatives, for example, won’t be supported by the ALP, because while they are good for workers, they are bad for unions.

  78. bespoke Avatar
    bespoke

    Way back in berth of blogging people were doing the same thing. Taking purity test and making grafs.
    Didn’t do bugger all difference then and will do bugger all difference know.
    The ‘right’ today is reactionary and vulnerable to grifters.

  79. 2dogs Avatar
    2dogs

    OPM

    The way to have Rawlsian equality for less tax (essentially FOCJ with equalisation) takes OPM completely out of the picture.

  80. dover0beach Avatar
    dover0beach

    The ‘right’ today is reactionary and vulnerable to grifters.

    The biggest grift on the right has always involved the NR cruise mob that has existed probably since the 80s. In the midst of the present culture, why wouldn’t you be a ‘reactionary’?

  81. Old Goat Avatar
    Old Goat

    No matter who you elect you get a politician . They (nearly) all lie and they only care about staying on the gravy train . The labels “left” and “right” are now meaningless . My only hope is that people with honesty and principles are stupid enough to get involved . Meloni and Gabbard are ironically the only pollies i see with cajones……

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  82. bespoke Avatar
    bespoke

    I’ll take proactive over reactive always.

  83. The Beer whisperer Avatar
    The Beer whisperer

    . The cultivation of an Australian sentiment based upon the maintenance of racial purity, and the development in Australia of an enlightened and self-reliant community.

    Trips over his own Dick in just three minutes.

    Lol, but racial superiority was something of a selling point in its day. The White Australia Policy was mostly about monopolising the labour market.

    Now Liebor is showering itself in praise for intending to build 10,000 homes per year while importing 30 times as much.

    They are the enemy of the working class, but the working class are too stupid to see it.

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