Al Shifa, et al.


On the 16th of November, White House spokesman John Kirby said,  “We have our own intelligence that convinces us that Hamas was using Al Shifa [hospital] as a command and control node, and most likely as well as a storage facility. We are still convinced of the soundness of that intelligence.”In this, he was giving what we might call independent support to the frequently proclaimed Israeli assessment. For instance, Reuters’ report on the Israeli capture of the hospital included this assessment.

Al Shifa hospital had become the chief target of a Gaza City incursion by Israeli forces, who said the “beating heart” of the Hamas fighters’ operations was headquartered in tunnels beneath it. Hamas denied the accusation and on Wednesday dismissed the Israeli statements as “lies and cheap propaganda”.

In preparation for the attack, the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) released a video with a 3D representation of the tunnels and command centre supposed to be under Al Shifa.

Ehud Olmert, a former Israeli Prime Minister, had a different opinion.

The Israeli version of the Al Shifa story is comprehensively told in an article from The Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center. Read it and come to your own conclusion about the correspondence between story and reality.

Irrespective of the details, Israel could be certain of finding a complex beneath Al Shifa, for reasons which are explained in a 2014 Hamas-hostile article from The Tablet: Top Secret Hamas Command Bunker in Gaza Revealed.

The idea that one of Hamas’ main command bunkers is located beneath Shifa Hospital in Gaza City is one of the worst-kept secrets of the Gaza war. So why aren’t reporters in Gaza ferreting it out? … Well, one reason might be that the “security sources” quoted whenever the location of the Hamas command bunker is mentioned—which…happens every time there’s a war in Gaza—are obviously Israelis, not members of Hamas. 

The Israelis are so sure about the location of the Hamas bunker…because they built it. Back in 1983, when Israel still ruled Gaza, they built a secure underground operating room and tunnel network beneath Shifa hospital—which is one among several reasons why Israeli security sources are so sure that there is a main Hamas command bunker in or around the large cement basement beneath the area of Building 2 of the Hospital, which reporters are obviously prohibited from entering. (My emphasis.)

Note that the “certainty” is an induction, and while such an induction was probably quite reasonable in 2014, it was hardly a certainty.

Another former Israeli PM, Ehud Barak “ignit[ed] a storm of misinformation” by doing something unusual in this conflict — telling the truth.

Even though the Meir Amit report is coy about it, an Appendix discusses the history of Al Shifa Hospital.

Initially, the hospital had 320 beds and served approximately 210,000 residents of Gaza City. The goal was approximately 900 beds in an extensive campus of 50 dunams, which would serve the residents of the entire Strip, while demolishing old buildings in favor of new high-risers equipped with advanced technology. The renovation phase of the 1990s also included concrete basement floors from which the Hamas leadership operated while hiding in the hospital.

Given that everybody knows about the subterranean hospital, how likely is it that, whatever the situation was in 2014, Hamas would have maintained a critical command post under Al Shifa in advance of their planned attack in 2023? It is perhaps less obvious that Israeli and US intelligence services also understand this, given their abject failure before October 7th.

While the focus has been on the “beating heart” of Hamas in Al Shifa, all of the hospitals of Gaza were being targeted. The Indonesian Hospital has been effectively destroyed. According to this report in the Guardian on the first of December, of 10 hospitals in the northern Gaza Strip, only two remained functional.

Meanwhile, Israel has levelled the Islamic University of Gaza;

the Palace of Justice;

and the Parliament building. Then there are the mosques, including the Great Omari Mosque. The Cathedral of St John the Baptist was built in AD406, purportedly on the site of the Philistine Temple of Dagon, the one destroyed by Samson. Around AD700, after Gaza had fallen to the Muslims, the Cathedral was converted in into a mosque. Now Israel has destroyed all but the tower. And Great Omari is only the most ancient of many mosques which have been destroyed.

Many in the West are bedazzled by the cultural and intellectual prominence of the Jews; many also feel that Western societies as a whole are still paying off a debt incurred in the camps of Poland and Germany in the 1940s; many are terrified, post 9-11 and post ISIS, of Islamic fundamentalism; some Christians give Israel their unwavering support for religious reasons. None of these groups are able to see Israel’s actions in Gaza dispassionately, if they “see” them at all. Some will assure themselves that these are all legitimate military targets. As an aid to assessing the validity of this, consider this story from various sources. Nearly 50% of the munitions dropped by Israel on one of the most heavily populated regions on Earth are unguided “dumb” bombs.

Israel is engaged in calculated destruction of the religious, medical and civil infrastructure of Gaza, along with the collateral destruction of thousands of human lives — noncombatant human lives. It is reminiscent of General Curtis LeMay’s expressed desire to “bomb [North Vietnam] back to the stone age,” except that the IDF flies unopposed, and Gaza is small enough to make the proposal feasible. In other places, this policy is known as “ethnic cleansing.” ¹

Much of what is called “the Global South,” including of course Muslim countries, sees Israel’s attacks in this way. While Western countries generally express support for Israel, they contain significant minorities who reject their governments’ position. I am not speaking here of the Islamic sub-cultures, some of whom are chanting “gas the Jews” in a mirror image of Israel’s destructive fervour, but of those who hope for, and despair of, a peaceful resolution of this ancient enmity in its modern setting.


¹ Statements from a “defense official,” an MK, and three ministers, including the Defense Minister and Netanyahu himself over a period from the 9th of October to the 11th of November himself made quite clear what the mood and the intention intention of the Israeli Government was.

‘“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” Gallant says [Oct 9] following an assessment at the IDF Southern Command in Beersheba. “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly,” he adds.’

“We’re rolling out Nakba 2023.” Likud Minister Avi Dichter. Nov 12.

Israeli defense official says Gaza will be reduced to a ‘city of tents’ while a politician calls for nuclear bombs. Oct 11

You must remember what Amalek has done to you.” Netanyahu, Oct 28.


101 responses to “Al Shifa, et al.”

  1. rosie Avatar
    rosie

    Israel is engaged in calculated destruction of the religious, medical and civil infrastructure of Gaza

    No, Israel is destroying the infrastructure of Hamas who built all the religious, medical and civil infrastructure of Gaza as part of it’s terror base.
    The shifa building with the tunnels etc was built by Qatar in 2014.
    There isn’t a single unwra school without tunnels.
    Mosques have always doubled as war headquarters.
    It’s why France has strict controls over them.

  2. rosie Avatar
    rosie

    with the collateral destruction of thousands of human lives

    This is the responsibility of hamas, who built the infrastructure and embedded themselves in civilian settings.
    There is no concept of the sanctity of human life in islam and in fact hamas openly desire the deaths of civilians.
    The ends always justify the means.
    In fact the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths (estimated now as 8000 in Gaza) is absolutely at the low end in modern warfare.

  3. Cassie of Sydney Avatar
    Cassie of Sydney

    No.

  4. Jock Avatar
    Jock

    What a fetid article. I’m sure the ministry of truth in engsoc would be proud.

  5. Chris Avatar
    Chris

    May these people, and their apologists and supporters internationally, get what they deserve.

  6. shatterzzz Avatar
    shatterzzz

    You have to start wondering when the cries for an enquiry into this UN approved virus, We-Luvs-Terrorism will gain traction ..

  7. Megan Avatar
    Megan

    I have absolutely no issue with Israel reducing the infrastructure that Hamas depends on to a pile of rubble.

    It’s a war. The sides are decided by the intentions of their leadership. Everyone else needs to get out of the way.

    I find the sight and sound of a Palestinian flag bedecked e-scooter on the streets of Richmond, with a mounted boom box spewing what I can only assume* is anti Israeli hate speech and militaristic rhetoric at volume 100, an absolute abomination.

    * Since I don’t speak Arabic.

  8. Damon Avatar
    Damon

    Someone broadcasting propaganda in a foreign language actually presumes someone is capable of listening and understanding. Bit of a worry, wouldn’t you think?

  9. Bruce of Newcastle Avatar
    Bruce of Newcastle

    I’ll repeat a comment by Rosie this morning on the OT:

    Thanks international donors!
    Breaking: “Tunnel shafts and weapons found in every @UNRWA
    school searched so far in Gaza”
    – IDF

    https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1737820360484204888

    Thanks Rosie! Also the head of the Kamal Adwan Hospital was captured by the IDF and is singing like a canary.

    WATCH — Gaza Hospital Manager: Hamas Turned Us into Military Installation (19 Dec)

    He also admits he was a senior Hamas commander. Which all makes sense, since no one in Gaza can have a paying job unless they’re a capo of Hamas. The place is a giant mafia racket.

  10. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    Historically, when Jews have been accused of whatever is the issue of the time, and expelled, or convicted of using Christian childrens’ blood in Passover cakes, or slaughtered in Pogroms, or accused like Dreyfus, or gassed by Nazis – when has any accusation been true. But suddenly, all these intelligent people with that knowledge of this history believe they have discovered the first time in the few thousand years of false accusations, the first time ever that their views aren’t clouded.

  11. Diogenes Avatar
    Diogenes

    As for the dumb bomb bullshit, this was debunked days ago on the open thread … But a link from that fascist rightwing news org MSN

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-israels-so-called-dumb-bombs-can-be-used-with-precision-in-gaza/ar-AA1lz2rm

  12. Cassie of Sydney Avatar
    Cassie of Sydney

    “I am not speaking here of the Islamic sub-cultures, some of whom are chanting “gas the Jews” in a mirror image of Israel’s destructive fervour, “

    It isn’t often I’m left speechless. Whilst the whole turgid piece reeks nonsense and drivel, the above line stands out for its putridness.

    Here’s a thought, Mr West should post at Adam’s Cat, he’ll find a willing audience there.

  13. Chris Avatar
    Chris

    A rabid dog must be put down without mercy.

  14. wal1957 Avatar
    wal1957

    Nice to see that this bit of BS has received the treatment it deserves.

  15. WolfmanOz Avatar
    WolfmanOz

    Was this article written by the Pervert Apologist ?

  16. Peter West Avatar
    Peter West

    Diogenes,

    … dumb bomb bullshit, this was debunked…”
    No, the facts were actually supported, but accompanied by explanations that the IDF pilots could use dumb bombs just (about) as accurately as guided munition. WHich leads to the obvious question: why spend all that money on precision-guided weapons?

  17. Peter West Avatar
    Peter West

    WolfmanOz,

    I don’t know the Pervert Apologist. And if I were the PA, and referring to this post, what, exactly, would I be an apologist for?

  18. Peter West Avatar
    Peter West

    Cassie,

    I assume that is is the comparison that offended you. The comparison is unreasonable. People chanting “gas the Jews” (behaviour I abhor) aren’t actually killing anyone yet, and hopefully won’t get the chance. The IDF is killing thousands of non-combatants, including thousands of children.

    Is there a factual problem with this?

  19. calli Avatar
    calli

    Return the hostages.

    Until then, all bets are off.

  20. calli Avatar
    calli

    Now that is very interesting. It even follows me to specialist threads.

    Dover, you do realise you are accomodating a stalker. Are you comfortable with this?

  21. Old School Conservative Avatar
    Old School Conservative

    People chanting “gas the Jews” (behaviour I abhor) aren’t actually killing anyone yet

    Ah yes Peter. It depends on the context, eh?
    I know, let’s wait until they actually kill Jews before we condemn their “hate speech”.

    PS the dead non-combatants in Gaza are better referred to as “human shields”. Tragic deaths indeed but totally the ultimate responsibility of Hamas.

  22. Robert Sewell Avatar

    calli

    Dec 22, 2023 7:04 PM
    Now that is very interesting. It even follows me to specialist threads.
    Dover, you do realise you are accomodating a stalker. Are you comfortable with this?

    Cyberstalking is now a criminal offence. It doesn’t matter if the person stalking you uses a pseudonym or no name at all. All that matters is the act and the repetitive nature of the stalking.
    If you are becoming alarmed at the act, or the words used, you may be able to ask for an AVO against the person. Remember that the act of cyberstalking nearly always starts off as harmless, but can suddenly escalate under the wrong circumstances.
    Someone who stalks another is not a well person.
    Here’s a link to the esafety Commissioner. Read it well.

  23. Viva Avatar
    Viva

    Wait ‘til Hamas starts calling Albo a handsome boy ….

  24. eb Avatar
    eb

    Is there a factual problem with this?

    Oh dear. You really cannot see the difference.

    How can you be so ignorant of what happened in WW2?

    Thousands, ten of thousands of civilians, were killed in the conflagration. Simply because they were in between “us” and the enemy. Many more were killed because they were the willing (or unfortunate) vassals of the enemy.

    Israel is facing an implacable enemy. An enemy that does not want peace, an enemy that is quite happy for many of its civilians to die as martyrs. An enemy that hides behind its women and children. An enemy that must be defeated absolutely to ensure the atrocities of 7 October never happen again.

    All deaths in Gaza are down to Hamas! They started the fight knowing exactly how Israel would have to respond.

    The Nazis were evil, the Soviets were evil, the CCP is evil, but, by God, Hamas has plumbed new depths.

  25. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    No, the facts were actually supported, but accompanied by explanations that the IDF pilots could use dumb bombs just (about) as accurately as guided munition. WHich leads to the obvious question: why spend all that money on precision-guided weapons?

    Similarly, why use tanks when it would be less expensive for soldiers to walk in and shoot.
    Ummm – consideration os scale of target in its surroundings, better protection so can be more precise.

  26. rosie Avatar
    rosie

    The IDF is killing thousands of non-combatants, including thousands of children

    This is the sort of cope I expect from hamas supporters.
    Hamas only killed x number of innocent civilians so Israel cannot kill any in seeking to root an implacable enemy who has vowed not to stop until the Jews are all gone.
    I’m absolutely sympathetic to the children* of Gaza, but it’s their parents that have put them in harm’s way, quite often, deliberately.
    A demand for a ceasefire which leaves hamas intact is a demand for future innocent Israeli deaths.
    Everything I read about IDF tactics suggests the opposite of this claim, bombing cancelled when civilians, especially children are spotted in the vicinity, ‘knocking’ on rooftops before bombing , dealing with women and children being sent out in from of terrorists, fake surrenders, even a hamas terrorist firing on them from a motorcycle with his two daughters with him.

    *even the boy soldiers recruited to hamas. A couple of very young boys were killed when the IED they were transporting blew up on them in the West Bank a couple of days ago.

  27. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    I assume that is is the comparison that offended you. The comparison is unreasonable. People chanting “gas the Jews” (behaviour I abhor) aren’t actually killing anyone yet, and hopefully won’t get the chance. The IDF is killing thousands of non-combatants, including thousands of children.

    Is there a factual problem with this?

    You know this foraum has Jews among the participants. Think of our history you obnoxious b***.

    It’s a sure indication that Hamas’s war and their supporters around the world follow the same genocidal script. They hate Jews – Israel is a secondary issue for them.

  28. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    People chanting “gas the Jews” (behaviour I abhor) aren’t actually killing anyone yet, and hopefully won’t get the chance.

    I am not speaking here of the Islamic sub-cultures, some of whom are chanting “gas the Jews” in a mirror image of Israel’s destructive fervour,

    You chose to balance these issues against each other, so don’t attempt to squirm out when called on it. And your assumtion is unfounded that it wasn’t chanted by our local citizens in consort with second generation Ausralians with foreign born parents.

  29. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    Dover, you do realise you are accomodating a stalker. Are you comfortable with this?

    Get used to it. It’s at the heart of the western world component of the war to delete Israel. I take part in The Conversation, where academia displays its research and views to the public. These “sentiments” laced with wanton ignorance are common in both articles by academics and far too many comments, or at least those not censored by the sqeamish work experience intern moderators.

    A sample

  30. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    hamas use children to transport explosives.

    “Show me the evidence” – is the usual demand by those who want a special edition executive summary mailed to their address by the Elders of Zion.

  31. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    Get used to it.

    Meaning it’s now common, not a stalker as though calling out a lone wolf. They’re everywhere.

  32. Peter West Avatar
    Peter West

    eb

    Yes, I am aware of WW2. I’m aware of the scale of it, across Europe, the USSR, Africa, China, S. E. Asia, and the Pacific. I’m aware of Dresden and Hamburg. I’m aware of Tokyo (orchestrated by Curtis LeMay.) And I’m aware of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the moral dilemmas still posed by the air attacks on all of those cities, and still discussed by people who have no sympathy for the Axis powers. Ever since WW2, major diplomatic efforts have been expended to prevent such levels of civilian casualties.

    I will respond again to both you and OSC about the issue of responsibility.

  33. C.L. Avatar
    C.L.

    Israel has levelled the Islamic University of Gaza

    This will set back a cure for cancer by decades, I’m sure.

    As for the razed mosques, I couldn’t care less.

    A few weeks ago I read an essay on the days following the fall of Constantinople. The desecrations and rapes went on for weeks. There wasn’t a woman (or comely boy) who wasn’t raped in the entire city – including the nuns. Mehmet – a boy buggerer himself – personally desecrated the altar of Hagia Sophia as soon as he entered it.

    I am tired of Western phony-sophisticates treating of Gaza as though it were a conundrum of statesmanship, cartography, international law, just war theory or the Rights of Man. It isn’t about any of those things. Gaza is simply a symbol for Muslims; a symbol, specifically, of their indoctrinated, wicked desire to destroy everybody who isn’t a member of their non-Abrahamic, devilish cult. They should never be given any quarter.

    Having said that, the foundational premise of this post – to wit, that Israel has acted disproportionately – is false. Proportionality in war is not roughly matching the number of casualties inflicted unlawfully upon you. Morally and legally, a proportional response is one that follows from the resolution that a military response is just, necessary for a nation’s long-term security, has achievable ends and will be prosecuted uninterruptedly until the unjust aggressor is crushed. This final point bespeaks something that is lost on most commentators; namely, that winning is a moral duty for Israel. It must discharge that responsibility for its own citizens and the world.

    More Gazans than Israelis will be killed but that is neither here nor there. Zero Gazans would have been killed had Hamas – beloved and schooled by Gazans – not murdered all those innocents on 7 October.

  34. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    People chanting “gas the Jews” (behaviour I abhor) aren’t actually killing anyone yet

    ASIO director-general Mike Burgess advised Labor MP Michelle Ananda-Rajah that Australia’s pro-Palestine rallies served as an important “pressure release” given a “real risk of a terror ­attack”,

    https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/politics/asio-director-to-labor-mp-propalestine-rallies-are-a-pressure-release-on-domestic-terrorism/news-story/eb6af0ded9589ae837b4f906abf64ca5

    They permit “gas the Jews” because if they don’t allow that “pressure release” they would actually do it.

  35. P Avatar
    P

    Zero Gazans would have been killed had Hamas – beloved and schooled by Gazans – not murdered all those innocents on 7 October.

    Absolutely.

  36. C.L. Avatar
    C.L.

    ASIO director-general Mike Burgess advised Labor MP Michelle Ananda-Rajah that Australia’s pro-Palestine rallies served as an important “pressure release” given a “real risk of a terror ­attack”…

    What a rat.

    He should be sacked.

  37. Peter West Avatar
    Peter West

    katz

    don’t attempt to squirm out

    I think you missed the point.

    assumption is unfounded that it wasn’t chanted by our local citizens

    Quite possibly. I don’t know. But the disapprobation applies irrespective of ethnicity.

  38. rosie Avatar
    rosie

    Exactly CL.

  39. Cassie of Sydney Avatar
    Cassie of Sydney

    C.L.
    Dec 22, 2023 9:51 PM

    As always, you’ve said it best.

  40. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    I think you missed the point.

    Explain why you compared them as equivalents in this –

    chanting “gas the Jews” in a mirror image of Israel’s destructive fervour,

  41. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    I think you missed the point.

    And also show a little understanding of what that “innocent” phrase about gassing Jews might possibly mean for Jews in Sydney. Do you think it’s just a mild reprimand, like “Zionists should really have permitted a Palestinian state” or do you think it might denote something quite different.

  42. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    another murdered hostage, 73 year old Gadi Hagai

    That’s only one. Shouldn’t we measure the moral worth of this against deaths of . . . I can’t be bothered finishing that stupid sentence. Body bag counts as though it’s a local pub darts competition. Does anyone really fall for that idiotic gumph any more. They do.

  43. Zatara Avatar
    Zatara

    why spend all that money on precision-guided weapons?

    Because many targets and tactical situations require precision guided munitions.

    Nighttime, low visibility, complex target area, high A/A threat, maneuvering target, reduced lethal zones, etc. are some of the considerations.

    Other targets don’t require such and less expensive weapons are appropriate.

  44. Gabor Avatar
    Gabor

    Here’s a thought, Mr West should post at Adam’s Cat, he’ll find a willing audience there.

    Yes both of them. + Adam of course.

  45. Peter West Avatar
    Peter West

    CL,

    Gaza is simply a symbol for Muslims;

    Gaza may be symbolic for Muslims outside Gaza. For the more than 2 million Gazans, it is where they live. This comment lends weight to my contention that Gazans are invisible in the West (and a problem for Egypt, for example.)

    a symbol, specifically, of their indoctrinated, wicked desire to destroy everybody who isn’t a member of their non-Abrahamic, devilish cult. They should never be given any quarter.

    “They” here refers to all Muslims, the ones to whom Gaza is a symbol (although I disagree with your reading of the symbol. I think it is better to say that Gaza is a tool in the hands of some Muslim centres.) “They” in “they should never be given any quarter” comes down to the inhabitants of Gaza.

    I’m not fond of Islam, and I fear Islamic extremism as much as the next Australian, but Islam isn’t going anywhere, at least until the Second Coming. What sort of relations do you want between Islam and the rest of the world in the meantime? The tentative thaw between Israel and the Saudis was obliterated by the Hamas attack. Is this a good thing, bringing closer a major conflict in which no quarter will be given?

    Your just war explanation falls down because of the conflation of Hamas with the population of Gaza. I haven’t seen the theory applied to ethnic cleansing before.

    ‘“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” Gallant says [Oct 9] following an assessment at the IDF Southern Command in Beersheba. “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly,” he adds.’ Who are the animals, exactly?

    “We’re rolling out Nakba 2023.” Likud Minister Avi Dichter. Nov 12.

    Israeli defense official says Gaza will be reduced to a ‘city of tents’ while a politician calls for nuclear bombs. Oct 11

    You must remember what Amalek has done to you.” Netanyahu, Oct 28.

    winning is a moral duty for Israel. It must discharge that responsibility for its own citizens and the world.

    And the world? If most of the 2 million people of Gaza are displaced; if Gaza is reduced to a city of tents, what good will that do the world? Will that put 2 billion Muslims, who are a big chunk of the world, in their place? Will that restore the situation at the turn of the 20th century, when Islam was in seemingly terminal decline, the Ottoman empire was the “sick man of Europe,” and Islam was intimidated everywhere by the West?

    Or will it be a unifying force between Sunni and Shia, focussed even more on the destruction of Israel? No quarter.

  46. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    You want “gas the Jews” to be just an idle rhetoric expression, while taking any statement from an Israeli as a firm threat of intention. You have those back to front.

    Your just war explanation falls down because of the conflation of Hamas with the population of Gaza.

    How is Hamas not the population of Gaza? If they aren’t then where are they from? Who are Hamas who have invaded Gaza?

    I haven’t seen the theory applied to ethnic cleansing before.

    Yes you have, and no-one wishes to mention it. It’ss been swept under the carpet of world memory because it’s loaded with inconvenient implications. Non-Zionist Jews were ethnically cleansed from all Arab/Muslim lands because Arabs failed to annihilate the Zionist state of Israel.

  47. DrBeauGan Avatar
    DrBeauGan

    It’s too late to get sentimental about Gazan children killed by Israel. Hamas is directly responsible for every single one. The list of Hamas war crimes includes putting the children at hazard. Nobody believes that Israeli forces are deliberately trying to kill children. Hamas did exactly that on October 7.

  48. rosie Avatar
    rosie

    Gazans are invisible in the West

    Nonsense.
    The West has poured billions into Gaza, for years.
    The vast majority of Gazans support Hamas and were delighted about the 7 October massacre.
    Many Gazan civilians joined hamas in Israel raping, murdering, hostage taking and stealing.
    If the IDF had not positioned tanks and helicopters on the border many more would have joined them.
    One might wonder how many invading gazans civilians, including women and children were killed on 7 October, I do know in the Kibbutz IDF tried to only target terrorists who were distinguishable by their headbands.

    It was recently reported that an overland transport routine has quietly opened up between Saudi and Israel so I wouldn’t be certain the Abraham accords are dead in the water.
    Hamas apologists never seem to wonder why Gazans aren’t welcome in any muslim countries.

  49. Robert Sewell Avatar

    rosie:

    Hamas apologists never seem to wonder why Gazans aren’t welcome in any muslim countries.

    They don’t care, rosie.
    They WANT their people to suffer because they know the media will use it as a weapon to support Hamas and crucify the West.

  50. Bruce Avatar
    Bruce

    Gaza; the size of a small sheep paddock and “home” to a couple of million people.

    Approximately FORTY “hospitals”, plus “specialist medical centres”. ALL paid for by “foreign agencies” and built by “interesting’ construction companies, most of whom seem more adept at pilfering the steel reinforcing and actual cement powder required for “proper”, then strict adherence to proper construction standards. ALL “overseen” by the Untidy Notions.

    “Hospitals” with hugely-expensive medical equipment shoved into store-rooms and sharing that space with weapons and ammunition.

    MORE “Paliwood”; EAGERLY lapped up and regurgitated by the filth-column “fourth estate”.

  51. Cassie of Sydney Avatar
    Cassie of Sydney

    “You must remember what Amalek has done to you.”

    Your whole screed is so disgraceful and pitiful but as to this quote by Bibi, Bibi happens to be right, the actions on 7 October 2023 (actions you clearly don’t have a problem with) are a continuation of the actions of “Amalek”. Amalek, in his many guises, be it Hitler, Hamas and so on is the perpetual enemy of the Jewish people. From biblical times, Amalek and his descendants seek the elimination, the annihilation, and the extermination of the Jewish people. At times Amalek has nearly succeeded but we Jews hang on and hold on.

    By the way, are you an Amalekite?

  52. dover0beach Avatar

    Having said that, the foundational premise of this post – to wit, that Israel has acted disproportionately – is false. Proportionality in war is not roughly matching the number of casualties inflicted unlawfully upon you. Morally and legally, a proportional response is one that follows from the resolution that a military response is just, necessary for a nation’s long-term security, has achievable ends and will be prosecuted uninterruptedly until the unjust aggressor is crushed. This final point bespeaks something that is lost on most commentators; namely, that winning is a moral duty for Israel. It must discharge that responsibility for its own citizens and the world.

    You are right that proportionality isn’t merely quantitative, but you’re here confusing jus ad bellum with jus in bello. You cannot adjudicate whether a single action was excessive or not by subsuming it into the totality of the war and/or by blaming it ‘ultimately’ on who is believed to be the unjust aggressor.

  53. rosie Avatar
    rosie

    All very well DB but other than hysterical claims from the hamas terror press what evidence is there to support the claims of indiscriminate bombing of civilians.
    Then again the claims are also that most civilian deaths are from Israeli sniper fire.

  54. Zatara Avatar
    Zatara

    Then again the claims are also that most civilian deaths are from Israeli sniper fire.

    Funny thing about battlefields, they tend to have heaps of bullets flying about from opposing and anonymous sources. How someone decides they were “sniper” rounds is related to claims of “special forces” sightings and such I mentioned yesterday.

  55. Peter West Avatar
    Peter West

    rosie,

    Nonsense.
    The West has poured billions into Gaza, for years.

    Yes, true. What I should have said, and what I meant, was that Gazans are invisible to Western supporters of Israel. In the media neighbourhoods I frequent, like this one, that means just about everybody.

  56. Plasmamortar Avatar
    Plasmamortar

    It’s interesting to see how the view of most people here is that every Gazan killed is Hamas’ responsibility.

    Many people are responsible for the death and destruction caused here.

    Query: if I am ordered to fire upon people (civilian or military targets, doesn’t matter) am I no longer responsible, because I am “following orders”, or do I still bear some level of responsibility?

    Am I responsible for the bombs falling from my plane? Or the bullets exiting the barrel of my gun as I press down upon the trigger?

    Of course not… because I’m shooting at “bad guys” as defined by my government and/or commanding officer.

    Second query: if I administer a lethal injection for a person sentenced to death, because I’m “just doing my job” am I a murderer?

  57. Cassie of Sydney Avatar
    Cassie of Sydney

    Yes, true. What I should have said, and what I meant, was that Gazans are invisible to Western supporters of Israel. In the media neighbourhoods I frequent, like this one, that means just about everybody.

    Utter rubbish. I wish they were “invisible” but sadly they’re not. Instead, every day Australians have been bombarded by “supporters of Gazans” in the CBDs of our cities, on university campuses, even in schools.

    Oh, and further to ‘neighbourhoods’, I note the convoys of Palestinians, Arabs and leftists who have converged on Jewish neighborhoods in Sydney and Melbourne, standing outside synagogues, defacing walls with Jew hating graffiti and so on. I’m sure you have heard? Or perhaps you have zero problem with such deliberate acts of intimidation? Worth noting that NO Jews have descended en masse into Muslim neighbourhoods such as Lakemba and Bankstown.

  58. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    @Plasmamortar

    It’s something like this, but there’s many websites you could check for a full explanation.

    A militia that doesn’t mark itself with uniforms and embeds itself among civilians and civilian facilities is responsible for harm caused to those civilians . A military that attacks that embedded militia is charged with assessing what degree of harm might occur against the “value” of the target, but is not necessarily accused of all and every harm to those civilians.

  59. rosie Avatar
    rosie

    Plasmortar with the insincere hypotheticals.
    In fact we already know that the IDF do assess individual situations as they arise and call off bombings etc where obvious civilians, such as children, are in the vicinity.
    If you plasmortar decide to accept the role of lord high executioner don’t be surprised if it involves administering a death penalty.
    Thus if you choose to live in Gaza, as executioner, you can legally throw homosexuals off roofs.

  60. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    Plasmortar with the insincere hypotheticals.

    The basis for understanding his fake rhetorical questions is intuitively understood by most children before age five. It’s usually expressed in defensive statements like “But mummy, he hit me first”.

  61. Baba Avatar
    Baba

    Anyone with any rudimentary knowledge of the Bible who accepted, without a second thought, the now absolutely discredited claim of “40” beheaded babies needs to be totally ashamed of being had to excuse a second holocaust.

  62. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    Anyone with any rudimentary knowledge of the Bible who accepted, without a second thought, the now absolutely discredited claim of “40” beheaded babies needs to be totally ashamed of being had to excuse a second holocaust.

    What exactly are you objecting to – do you want a more exact count. Numbers rounded to tens should always be suspected as approximations. Would you also like an exact count of persons raped and burnt to a cinder? And please explain the “Bible” reference.

  63. Baba Avatar
    Baba

    And please explain the “Bible” reference.

    Obviously I wasn’t referring to you.

  64. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    And please explain the “Bible” reference.

    Obviously I wasn’t referring to you.

    I’m so ignorant. Please explain it.

  65. Pogria Avatar
    Pogria

    Katzenjammer
    Dec 23, 2023 8:17 PM
    Plasmortar with the insincere hypotheticals.

    The basis for understanding his fake rhetorical questions is intuitively understood by most children before age five. It’s usually expressed in defensive statements like “But mummy, he hit me first”.

    Katzenjammer,
    you have distilled the essence of the wordy crap into six, simple words. The West berk who posted the lede, same.

    Bravo.

  66. Plasmamortar Avatar
    Plasmamortar

    The basis for understanding his fake rhetorical questions is intuitively understood by most children before age five. It’s usually expressed in defensive statements like “But mummy, he hit me first”.

    No worries.
    Just stand there and let some beat your nose through your skull then.
    That’s what “real men” do…

    Also, do you even remember your life before age 5?

    I guarantee you don’t, you’re full of shit.

  67. Plasmamortar Avatar
    Plasmamortar

    Katzenjammer,
    you have distilled the essence of the wordy crap into six, simple words. The West berk who posted the lede, same.

    Bravo.

    Sometimes things need simplifying for those who can’t read or understand things beyond their own narrow minded vision…

  68. Pogria Avatar
    Pogria

    Sometimes things need simplifying for those who can’t read or understand things beyond their own narrow minded vision…

    Not just a Philosopher, a Comedian as well.

  69. Cassie of Sydney Avatar
    Cassie of Sydney

    Oh dear Spasmamortar doesn’t like getting called out for his “shit”.

    Funny that.

  70. Cassie of Sydney Avatar
    Cassie of Sydney

    [Quoted vulgarity smited]

    Disgusting. Methinks the writer of the above words has just revealed, in one fell sweep, his/her/its utterly vicious unhinged Jew hatred. It is now open, for all to see.

    Grounds for smiting.

  71. Plasmamortar Avatar
    Plasmamortar

    Disgusting. Methinks the writer of the above words has just revealed, in one fell sweep, his/her/its utterly vicious unhinged Jew hatred. It is now open, for all to see.

    Grounds for smiting.

    Sorry, I can’t understand what your saying, try taking the dick out before speaking.

    Also, you’re falling back on the standard anti-semitism shut down the argument bullshit card.

    I have no time for people who are supportive of war crimes.

    (Which, by the way, flooding tunnels after bombing a city and forcing everyone underground to get away from the bombs, is a fucking war crime.)

    If any other western country did this shit, it would already be brought to heel.

  72. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    Also, do you even remember your life before age 5?

    When I was four our phone number was LY7049. The shop next door sold liccorice blocks. Do you want other details?

  73. MatrixTransform Avatar
    MatrixTransform

    Quite possibly. I don’t know. But the disapprobation applies irrespective of ethnicity

    … and to hear the lamentations of their women. etc

    the conflict is not occurring inside your head like a conceptual board-game Mr West

  74. MatrixTransform Avatar
    MatrixTransform

    Your just war explanation falls down because of the conflation of Hamas with the population of Gaza. I haven’t seen the theory applied to ethnic cleansing before.

    this is a fallacious argument

    … let me count the ways

    mUnty-esque perfection

  75. Pogria Avatar
    Pogria

    Katzenjammer
    Dec 24, 2023 9:00 AM
    Also, do you even remember your life before age 5?

    When I was four our phone number was LY7049. The shop next door sold liccorice blocks. Do you want other details?

    Katzenjammer,
    I spent the first five and a half years of my life at Villawood Migrant Hostel. It was Silver City in those days. I still remember being walked to the canteen to have meals, I can describe the Laundry room where mum took us three littlest ones while she did her washing. A large square, corrugated building with a wooden bench running around all four sides, interspersed with concrete sinks and a copper in each corner.

    On Sundays we would walk along the train tracks to the Catholic Church at Villawood. I don’t remember the church, not many young children do! But distinctly remember the walk there as it was the only day the whole family was together.

    Many of the long term migrants at the hostel had veg gardens and even kept chickens. Early memory is not unusual.

  76. Pogria Avatar
    Pogria

    Matrix,
    how is Dad?

  77. MatrixTransform Avatar
    MatrixTransform

    how is Dad?

    not this thread Pog … the OT

  78. rosie Avatar
    rosie

    Anyone with any rudimentary knowledge of the Bible who accepted, without a second thought, the now absolutely discredited claim of “40” beheaded babies needs to be totally ashamed of being had to excuse a second holocaust.

    What’s that supposed to mean.
    That all Jews are liars.
    Who accepted the claim?
    There were beheadings, a mother and daughter tied together and burnt to a twisted fusion of spines and eyes gouged out and
    other atrocities too foul to mention
    but let’s focus on one early misunderstanding.
    Oh and Israel deliberately killed 500 people sheltering at the Baptist hospital, what does the Bible say about that?

  79. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    Pogria
    I spent the first five and a half years

    You asked me. I’m not interested in your life.

  80. Aaron Avatar
    Aaron

    Hamas use their own citizens and infrastructure as protection.

    You fire from behind a child or from a hospital, you are responsible for the outcome of return fire.

    Terrorist amoral scum and maybe the next generation can be saved if they see a pile of Hamas corpses and a wasteland to call home.

    Then again, they may grow up to rape 80yr old women in revenge.

    Rinse and repeat until the bastards stop it.

  81. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    What’s that supposed to mean.

    I think he’s questioning the exact number of “40”, but I don’t know what the Bible reference is about.

  82. JC Avatar
    JC

    Anyone with any rudimentary knowledge of the Bible who accepted, without a second thought, the now absolutely discredited claim of “40” beheaded babies

    Then, how many babies was it? 35? Those devils videoed themselves decapitating people with glee. They were giddy about it. But it’s a stretch to believe they decapitated babies and young children? Are you serious?

  83. Pogria Avatar
    Pogria

    Matrix,
    sorry, I forgot which thread I was on.

  84. Cassie of Sydney Avatar
    Cassie of Sydney

    Katz, Pogs is a great contributor to this site. I found her comment engaging. She is a loyal friend to Jews and Israel. She has our back.

  85. Pogria Avatar
    Pogria

    Cassie,
    thanks for the kind words. I wasn’t upset by Katzenjammers comment, perhaps he had me mixed up with another commenter. If not, still not upset, sticks and stones and water off a duck’s back etc.

  86. dover0beach Avatar

    All very well DB but other than hysterical claims from the hamas terror press what evidence is there to support the claims of indiscriminate bombing of civilians.

    Specific claims need to be investigated in each instance. There is that 13 year old girl that lost her family doing the rounds early last week recovering from an amputated leg. I heard she was later killed when a tank round entered the hospital where she was recovering. It is possible that this was inadvertent but reasonable in the circumstance but that would require knowledge of the circumstance. As to the broader claim, it is now being argued beyond the ‘hamas terror press’ in mainstream publications. If WaPo is publishing articles of this kind it’s a signal from the Deep State.

  87. Katzenjammer Avatar
    Katzenjammer

    Ooops. Apologies Pogria. Copyed & pasted the wrong name.
    It was Plasmamortar who questioned my memory before age five.

  88. rosie Avatar
    rosie

    Specific claims need to be investigated in each instance.

    Yes they do.
    Of course if her family were hamas terrorists, or if her family refused to move after an Idf warning, or hamas prevented her family from moving somewhere safer, and if hamas were operating from the hospital the responsibility is at the
    least shared.
    And also
    hamas lies, all the time.

  89. Pogria Avatar
    Pogria

    Katzenjammer,
    no worries! As I said upthread, I was pretty sure it was a mistake.
    Merry Christmas!

  90. Pogria Avatar
    Pogria

    And also
    hamas lies, all the time.

    THIS, multiplied by infinity, times a billion.

  91. rosie Avatar
    rosie

    Gaza Strip:

    An Arab woman and her children waving white flags walked towards the soldiers and the IDF rushed towards them to help when gunfire opened on them. It was an ambush.

    May the soldiers memory be a blessing

    oh look

  92. Peter West Avatar
    Peter West

    Back from celebrating the birth of the Prince of Peace. Happy Christmastide.

    I wrote in a comment,

    This comment lends weight to my contention that Gazans are invisible in the West

    Much argy-bargy ensued, in response to which I wrote,

    What I should have said, and what I meant, was that Gazans are invisible to Western supporters of Israel. In the media neighbourhoods I frequent, like this one, that means just about everybody.

    One response was

    Utter rubbish.

    In the whirl of accusations, I lost sight of what I had actually posted on this topic.

    Many in the West are bedazzled by the cultural and intellectual prominence of the Jews; many also feel that Western societies as a whole are still paying off a debt incurred in the camps of Poland and Germany in the 1940s; many are terrified, post 9-11 and post ISIS, of Islamic fundamentalism; some Christians give Israel their unwavering support for religious reasons. None of these groups are able to see Israel’s actions in Gaza dispassionately, if they “see” them at all.

    (emphasis newly added)

    All I needed to do was refer back to this. I stand by this assessment, and the tenor of the comments here has reinforced that opinion – a point I was making in response to a comment from CL.

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