Open Thread – Sunday Evening 15 Aug 2021


Nighthawks, Edward Hopper, 1942

N.B. If you’re commenting here for the first time it goes into automoderation. Once I approve it it should appear immediately and without delay from then on.

Also, can people let me know if they like or dislike the nested comment format. I think it saves having to quote replies to existing comments as you can reply directly (there are also other benefits to this) or do you prefer the old format?

Any other suggestions are welcomed too.


Subscribe
Notify of
guest

1.4K Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
rosie
rosie
August 15, 2021 8:04 pm

First

rosie
rosie
August 15, 2021 8:04 pm

Lol not worthy of being called a thought.

Cassie of Sydney
August 15, 2021 8:26 pm

Just watching an interesting doco on the Black Death……far deadlier than Covid.

areff
areff
August 15, 2021 8:43 pm

I don’t believe I can linger any longer at Adam’s Cat redux. Bird’s constant presence smears any who post near him. It is simplicity itself to block an IP address on WordPress, yet for day after day that vile creature spews his madness on page after page.

Enough. If you’re prepared to lower your standards, DB, I’d be delighted to join your little band.

JC
JC
August 15, 2021 8:45 pm

Monster is a fat idiot.

Discuss.

rosie
rosie
August 15, 2021 8:48 pm

Where is that? I read a book on the plaque. There was an Italian priest doctor who came ‘this close’ to figuring out the cause.

John H.
John H.
August 15, 2021 8:53 pm

The Most Beautiful 2 Minutes of Music

I’ve been listening to Keith Jarrett most of my adult life. He is a genius but tragically can no longer play due to physical impairment. His album, Live at Koln, is the best selling jazz album. Full improvisation and wonderful. Just coming back from a walk I was listening to “Mirrors”, the first track of the album Arbour Zena, a Jarrett composition with string orchestra, Jan Garbarek on sax, Charlie Haden on Bass. Garbarek and Haden are legends in the jazz world.

rosie
rosie
August 15, 2021 8:57 pm

The Great Plaque by Stephen Porter was the book I read.

Fascinating.

Tom
Tom
August 15, 2021 9:25 pm

Hooray, DB. This is my new blogging home, starting with cartoons tomorrow (Monday) morning at 0400.

I’m sure I’ll get the hang of it. At least it’s moderated, unlike the untended wreckage we’ve left behind.

Thank you very much, DB. You’ve won the competition simply because, unlike Adam D, you were prepared to put in the work.

Wally Dalí
Wally Dalí
August 15, 2021 9:41 pm

How open is this open thread?
I’m actually Dave in Marybrook, but trying on a new alter ego.

Gab
Gab
August 15, 2021 10:04 pm

So many good features here, Dover. Well done.

I do however miss the ”Latest Comments” list and a list of recent articles on the right hand side of the site.

JC
JC
August 15, 2021 10:05 pm

No I can’t help myself, but I swear for some reason I thought this was Monster’s site.

Tom
Tom
August 15, 2021 10:06 pm

Thanks for the offer at 9.57pm, Zipster, but I’m an editor as well as a poster. I file only what I think are the best Australian, European and American daily cartoons and leave out the rubbish, of which there is plenty. I’ve been doing this for a living for a very, very long time.

Tom
Tom
August 15, 2021 10:09 pm

I’m actually Dave in Marybrook, but trying on a new alter ego.

Welcome aboard, Dave.

rudiau
rudiau
August 15, 2021 10:12 pm

Thanks for you hard work Dover.

Gab
Gab
August 15, 2021 10:12 pm

Thanks, Dover

Knuckle Dragger
Knuckle Dragger
August 15, 2021 10:16 pm

I can say ‘Collingwood’ and ‘mutants’ here, right?

Knuckle Dragger
Knuckle Dragger
August 15, 2021 10:21 pm

On This Day:

1057 – King Macbeth is killed at the Battle of Lumphanan by the forces of Máel Coluim mac Donnchada.

Sadly for Mael Coluim (Malcolm), Macbeth’s stepson Lulach was put on the throne instead. Happily for Mal, he was able to have Lulach killed early in 1058 and seized the throne.

If people think they’re in turmoil in this day and age, go back a thousand years.

Knuckle Dragger
Knuckle Dragger
August 15, 2021 10:23 pm

I don’t want to appear too much of a fanboi, having just walked in, but I must say – Dover, this is pretty nice. Really good setup.

Rorschach
Rorschach
August 15, 2021 10:23 pm

Did Dot ever get any of his sites up and running?

rickw
rickw
August 15, 2021 10:24 pm

How does this thing work?!

Top Ender
Top Ender
August 15, 2021 10:27 pm

Evening all.

Rorschach
Rorschach
August 15, 2021 10:28 pm

And in much earlier than anticipated timeframes, as we speak, the Taliban is now taking over the Afghani Government .

It is already recognised by China – who are offering all the help they need…

Top Ender
Top Ender
August 15, 2021 10:31 pm

Eight teenage girls have committed suicide in the first seven months of this year, a marked increase in the number of young women taking their lives in a tragic toll being closely watched by the Victorian Coroners Court.

The alarming rise has been recorded by the court amid a deepening youth mental health crisis that expert professor Patrick McGorry has described as a “shadow pandemic”.

New court data reveals eight girls committed suicide to July 31, up from just one in the first seven months of last year. In the same period in 2019, Coroner’s Court statistics show three teenage girls took their own lives while the number was four in 2018 and three in 2017.

Oz

Bar Beach Swimmer
August 15, 2021 10:32 pm

thanks Dover!

Top Ender
Top Ender
August 15, 2021 10:33 pm

That was quick. Someone’s been reading on blitzkreig ops.

The Afghan government appeared to have collapsed on Sunday night as the Taliban declared victory, the US embassy was evacuated and the Australian military prepared to rescue expatriates, with the Islamist insurgents at the gates of Kabul.

Australian special forces and infantry are preparing to evacuate Australian nationals and former local employees from Kabul after the Taliban breached the defences of the besieged capital of five million people on Sunday.

Scott Morrison confirmed planning for the mission was being given “utmost urgency and priority”, but refused on security grounds to provide further details.

“I don’t think it is advisable for me to go into operational arrangements that are being put in place for the security of those we are seeking to help,” the Prime Minister said.

It appeared the Taliban was prepared to allow the allied evacuation to go ahead, declaring the Afghan government was responsible for the city’s security “until the transition takes place”.

As Taliban negotiators entered the city Afghan media reported that President Ashraf Ghnai was preparing to resign to make way for a new government led by the Islamist insurgents.

Oz

feelthebern
feelthebern
August 15, 2021 10:54 pm

Place smells of rich Corinthian leather.

John H.
John H.
August 15, 2021 10:57 pm
feelthebern
feelthebern
August 15, 2021 10:58 pm

Someone should have done A Canticle for Leibowitz ending at Sinc’s blog when it wrapped up.
Shaking the dust from ones sandals and all that.

Slim Cognito
Slim Cognito
August 15, 2021 11:01 pm

I have only been on this site for 5 minutes but it seems to be the best version of the new cat I have seen so far. I was hoping the true spirit would be preserved somewhere. Well done Dover!

Bruce in WA
August 15, 2021 11:09 pm

Thought I might give this a try. The maniacal, actionable, hateful ravings on Adam’s site are not something I have any wish to be involved in.

Please consider me.

Wally Dalí
Wally Dalí
August 15, 2021 11:13 pm

Great start, Dover. Looks good, good lead articles. I like pictures.

Wally Dalí
Wally Dalí
August 15, 2021 11:19 pm

First thought-
how does a lurker keep an eye on two fronts, ie the leading edge of ongoing OT posts, and also replies to a post which may be embedded in a page far back in arrears?

Barking Toad
Barking Toad
August 16, 2021 1:20 am

Glad I saw Tom’s post on Adams site and look forward to 04:00am- good to see familiar names here.

Got RSI from the constant need to scroll on Adam’s site.

Armadillo
Armadillo
August 16, 2021 2:14 am

Anyone recall what “Joel” was saying back in the day?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMWOEDvrAA0

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 2:33 am
rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 2:35 am

Dave asks a question, lots of answers but bottom line the UK is living with covid

https://mobile.twitter.com/DHughesy/status/1426753473303826434

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 2:36 am

In 100 percent agreement with Peter Horowitz

https://mobile.twitter.com/Horror1403/status/1426822559727714305

Tom
Tom
August 16, 2021 4:00 am
Tom
Tom
August 16, 2021 4:02 am
Tom
Tom
August 16, 2021 4:03 am
Tom
Tom
August 16, 2021 4:04 am

David Rowe on the anti-business daily’s 70th birthday.

Tom
Tom
August 16, 2021 4:06 am

Andy Davey. More here.

Tom
Tom
August 16, 2021 4:07 am
Tom
Tom
August 16, 2021 4:08 am
Tom
Tom
August 16, 2021 4:09 am
Tom
Tom
August 16, 2021 4:10 am
Tom
Tom
August 16, 2021 4:11 am
Tom
Tom
August 16, 2021 4:12 am
Tom
Tom
August 16, 2021 4:13 am
Tom
Tom
August 16, 2021 4:14 am
Tom
Tom
August 16, 2021 4:15 am
Tom
Tom
August 16, 2021 4:16 am
Tom
Tom
August 16, 2021 4:17 am
Tom
Tom
August 16, 2021 4:18 am
win
win
August 16, 2021 4:41 am

Thanks Tom. And DB.

Diogenes
Diogenes
August 16, 2021 5:12 am

Please Dover,
can I join your club?

Mater
August 16, 2021 5:14 am

Also, can people let me know if they like or dislike the nested comment format. I think it saves having to quote replies to existing comments as you can reply directly (there are also other benefits to this) or do you prefer the old format?

DB,
Honestly, I like the old format better.
My reasons are two fold:

1. Other than if you notice it happening on the side bar, the conversation is likely to be quickly lost to the tides of time. Having it reappear as a new post keeps the conversation about a topic rolling along, with new people joining in as it goes.

2. Related to the first point, having replies appear as new posts (intermingled with all the other replies) allowed me to engage in several different ‘threads’ without trying to re-find them all. It was information push, rather than information pull.

Just my thoughts. I had no issues cutting and pasting, especially now that you have the formatting tools up and running.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
August 16, 2021 5:26 am

Dover, the links should change colour from blue before you’ve used them to red after you’ve used them. Yours stay blue.

It’s hardly important, but it can be useful to know if you’ve seen something before. I guess this means posting a cookie.

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 5:33 am

Discussion David Leyonhjelm, Adam Creighton and Gigi Foster being planned

https://mobile.twitter.com/Nicjournalist/status/1426815627604336643

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 5:36 am
rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 5:43 am

Sounds like exit from Afghanistan is a debacle https://mobile.twitter.com/yesnicksearcy/status/1426989207864578048

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 6:03 am
Knuckle Dragger
Knuckle Dragger
August 16, 2021 6:40 am

Gladys on Operation Stay At Home:

‘Yeah, well, everyone was pretty much in lockdown anyway.’

Inspirational.

Knuckle Dragger
Knuckle Dragger
August 16, 2021 6:46 am

I sort of align with Mater here, Dover, if I may say so.

The old system, for want of a better turn of phrase allows for keeping track of several discussions at once. Most of the time whoever’s posting a comment relevant to a discussion will identify the original poster and time anyway, so if you’re interested enough you can scroll back and find both the original, and the context behind it.

Cassie of Sydney
August 16, 2021 7:09 am

Thanks DB for this. I’ve really tried with Adam’s Cat but I’ve been getting quite distressed…firstly with Bird’s never ending and very offensive anti-Semitic posts and secondly, after what happened to me last Tuesday night, I just feel rather tepid about the whole place. Yesterday the always eloquent C.L. spoke for many of us yesterday when he wrote his comment comparing Adam’s Cat to Atlantis….a comparison I found very apt but for that he copped a nasty spray from the Queen of Nasty Sprays…somehow insinuating that C.L. was no different to the “Never Trumpers” of 2016. Oy vey. I feel safe here.

Knuckle Dragger
Knuckle Dragger
August 16, 2021 7:18 am

Somewhere in this country, there will be a political staffer doing a bit of research and finding out that there are still government cards in the deck left to play. On this day 202 years ago, a crowd of 60,000 had gathered in Peterloo, northern England, to demand parliamentary reform after both an economic slump and only having 11% of the male population able to vote:

Local magistrates called on the Manchester and Salford Yeomanry to arrest Hunt and several others on the platform with him. The Yeomanry charged into the crowd, knocking down a woman and killing a child, and finally apprehended (speaker and organiser Henry) Hunt.

Cheshire Magistrates’ chairman William Hulton then summoned the 15th Hussars to disperse the crowd. They charged with sabres drawn, and between nine and seventeen people were killed and four to seven hundred injured in the ensuing confusion.

Top Ender
Top Ender
August 16, 2021 7:18 am

Thanks Tom

Mother Lode
Mother Lode
August 16, 2021 7:23 am

Posting just to get through auto-moderation process.

Mother Lode
Mother Lode
August 16, 2021 7:23 am

Oh, that’s right. I posted on another thread previously.

Cassie of Sydney
August 16, 2021 7:25 am

Further to what I wrote last….Last night I watched on the History Channel a great documentary about the Black Death and its various eruptions throughout Europe, beginning of course in the mid 1300s and then with outbreaks continuing for the next 300 years. We’ve all learnt the history that it was caused by fleas and rats…..as in Bubonic Plague….but there are now scientists and historians who question that theory and instead they suspect that the Plague that tormented Europe for over three hundred years wasn’t Bubonic but, given the symptoms, a disease more like Ebola…..a virus that causes fever, body aches, diarrhea and bleeding inside and outside the body.

I find it interesting because, given what we’re all enduring now, this isn’t a pandemic.

PeterM
PeterM
August 16, 2021 7:25 am

I’m sickened by the debacle in Afghanistan, and I think it can only impact the state of mind of those already suffering from their time in-country. I pray not.

For the well trained and well equipped Afghan army to collapse so quickly, there must have been a total failure of leadership. It would not surprise if a group of the leaders actually did a deal with the Taliban.

Mother Lode
Mother Lode
August 16, 2021 7:36 am

The great plaque?

It is a common misconception that people in the middle ages did not brush their teeth. I heard that even for the least of people they could snap a twig off a tree and burr the end on a rock surface so the wood fibres formed bristles.

Knuckle Dragger
Knuckle Dragger
August 16, 2021 7:36 am

Okay. I have identified (for me, at least) why this version of the now-deceased august journal of record has the gravitas the others lack.

It’s not the artwork at the top, although it is both very nice, and very apt.

It’s not the fonts, although they are very cool – to the point where I feel the need to wear a tie while posting. It’s not even the avian-free environment, although naturally that is a huge factor.

It is the OT title. ‘Sunday evening’. As bern mentioned last night, it has the feel of rich Corinthian leather.

‘Good evening, Carruthers.’
‘Good evening, messrs De la Pole and Mortimer.’

I also strongly encourage use of the term ‘forenoon’.

Helen
Helen
August 16, 2021 7:37 am

Thanks for the ‘toons Tom and sorry you left the back bar of Kirbys. (A pub of renown in Katherine)

I think of the three sites as new-cat is the back bar at Kirbys in Katherine, nilk’s is the front bar and this place is the lounge. I will be cruising through all of ’em, depending on my mood. 🙂

Helen
Helen
August 16, 2021 7:38 am

Thanks for the ‘toons Tom and sorry you left the back bar of Kirbys. (A pub of renown in Katherine)

I think of the three sites as new-cat is the back bar at Kirbys in Katherine, nilk’s is the front bar and this place is the lounge. I will be cruising through all of ’em, depending on my mood. ?

Oops wrong email

hzhousewife
hzhousewife
August 16, 2021 7:40 am

Hooray, a sane place!
Canada to go to the polls Sep 20 – can I vainly hope Trudeau will be trounced.

Goanna
Goanna
August 16, 2021 7:41 am

Greetings Dover.
I come in peace.

Dr Zelenko found the tripartite treatment for Covid . He treated President Trump and was successful in treating patients until Cuomo regulated Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquin. He had to find another pathway to treat his patients.

The interesting thing that I learnt from this video is that it’s the zinc that is the magic bullet the other agents like Ivermectin only help get the zinc into the cells.
He discovered that freely available quercetin will do when the other agents are unavailable. It’s not as good but as he says you go to war with the army you have.

https://rumble.com/vl4u7t-dr.-zev-zelenko-slays-globalists-exposes-global-genocidal-event.html

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
August 16, 2021 7:41 am

I’m happy with having arguments with anyone. I’ve had long, long arguments with Dover on the original Çat. No problems. What I find sad is when they arguments turn iinto exchanges of abuse. It never happened between me and Dover.
What interested me most in our exchanges was that we usually agreed on what conduct is moral and what isn’t, while disagreeing completely on the foundations of morality. Supporting my belief that the foundations of ethical theories go in last, unlike the foundations of buildings.
A core element of Western civ is the idea that you can disagree and argue passionately with someone and stay friends. Most other cultures don’t work that way.

Knuckle Dragger
Knuckle Dragger
August 16, 2021 7:43 am

the back bar of Kirbys

Aha. Indeed.

The Guiding Star and Derrimut Hotel in Melbourne’s west had similar, if not greater reputations, as did Tattersall’s in Townsville once upon a time.

Bloodhouses like those were both underrated and invaluable as teachers of etiquette.

Goanna
Goanna
August 16, 2021 7:44 am

“The incompetence of our health bureaucrats knows no end.

In January this year, advisor to the WHO tweeted;
‘’Ivermectin meta-analysis reported in the Financial Times: The purpose of this report is to forewarn people that this is coming: get prepared, get supplies, get ready to approve it. We need to be ready.”

But he was ignored, & now the TGA have just advised that Australia’s just run out of Ivermectin tablets due to ‘’Unexpected consumer demand.”
/Craig Kelly. Telegram.

Barking Toad
Barking Toad
August 16, 2021 7:46 am

Media screeching again …

A 15-year-old boy from Sydney’s southwest has died of meningitis while infected with Covid, making him the youngest Australian victim of the virus..

Maybe meningitis and associated complications may have had something to do with it.

lotocoti
lotocoti
August 16, 2021 7:50 am

I also strongly encourage use of the term ‘forenoon’.

Can we include First and Second Dogs too?
(The cur-tailed watches, for those who don’t know their Admiralty Law Lore.)

Mater
August 16, 2021 7:54 am

In regards to Afghanistan, I never really got the sense that they wanted as there. We were just another invading army, which Afghanistan has seen no shortage of during it’s history.

I once asked a village chief in the Khost province (after he regaled me with stories of butchering Russians and subsequently their corpses) why he was not doing the same to me.

His response…paraphrased:
“I love my family and want a better life for them. The Americans have promised us that they’ll build for us everything they enjoy in their country, roads, hospitals, etc. After that happens, or when it becomes evident that it’s not going to, and they refuse to leave, I’ll kill you too.”

Were the Americans ever going to live up to such lofty expectations in a country with almost no education standard or resources? Germany, Italy and Japan can be used as positive examples, but all we’re on a certain trajectory before the war, and just needed to be rebuilt. Afghanistan started from not much better than medieval standards. It’ll be back there in a hurry, unless they fight for something better themselves.

I’m not saying Biden shouldn’t be held accountable, just that I’m not surprised.

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 7:56 am

PeterM

Re Afghanistan

Would that deal be because money, a shared ideology, or both?

I read a while back that the ragtag of IS were in Afghanistan.

It was depressing to see Ian Cheng putting up video of bodies in the streets of Kandahar.

Cassie of Sydney
August 16, 2021 8:01 am

We need to get C.L. here too.

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 8:03 am

Afghanistan will go backwards because it’s build on civilisation sand.

They don’t need no stinking education.

ChrisM
August 16, 2021 8:04 am

Thanks Tom we service people without pc,s and laptops your time and effort greatly appreciated.

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 8:06 am

President Trump had covid and recovered. He authorised Warp Speed and was one of the first to get vaccinated.

I trust his judgement way way more than any Australian’s current elected and their we can’t have no covid cowardice.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
August 16, 2021 8:08 am

>

End of nested comments.

Good. I had to keep scrolling up to see what was happening with arguments. Now all we need is blockquote buttons.

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 8:10 am

I do like the right side bar format of the old cat.

Bruce of Newcastle
Bruce of Newcastle
August 16, 2021 8:20 am

Hi Dover. I thought I’d drop in to see how it’s going. Looks good!

Small thing about format: your default zoom setting is rather big, so that it makes scrolling through the OT very slow. And the spacing format for comments makes that worse. Scrolling scrolling.

No way to scan down comments several at a time without changing the browser zoom setting. And having to do that just for the New Cat, then change it back upon leaving, is a drag.

One of the things I liked about the old Cat was it was in a smaller font than many blogs these days. It’s probably a phones vs laptops thing.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
August 16, 2021 8:21 am

the Plague that tormented Europe for over three hundred years wasn’t Bubonic but, given the symptoms, a disease more like Ebola…..a virus that causes fever, body aches, diarrhea and bleeding inside and outside the body.

Oh, the joy of having blockquotes back again! Cassie, there are so many opinions about past plagues, and it is hard to be certain about any of them. The presence of ‘buboes’ in the armpits and groin tends to indicate Bubonic Plague, but other aspects reported, including strong pneumonic aspects, may have been a pneumonic form of plague or some other opportunistic coterminous infection of the influenza variety. Nothing to say that varous infections could not have been raging at the same time in poorly nourished populations, as many of these were. One that interests me is the Sweating Sickness that appeared in Tudor times. It took off Cromwell’s beloved wife and two daughters who seem to have sickened and died within a day (although sub-infection likely for a week at least). So we hear of the phenomenon of someone standing chatting in the morning and dead by nightfall. Covid is real and can be nasty, but it is heavily politicised too. Most people will survive it well in Western nations.

JMH
JMH
August 16, 2021 8:22 am

A refuge from the insanity!

Thank you, Dover. Thank you, Tom.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
August 16, 2021 8:27 am

Maybe meningitis and associated complications may have had something to do with it.

See my comment above about the concurrence of two infectious diseases.

Miningitis is ususally the big media go-to for scaremongering. Now Covid trumps Meningitis.

Cassie of Sydney
August 16, 2021 8:27 am

“One that interests me is the Sweating Sickness that appeared in Tudor times. It took off Cromwell’s beloved wife and two daughters who seem to have sickened and died within a day (although sub-infection likely for a week at least).”

I find that sickness interesting too…..people would wake in the morning, be fit as a fiddle but sicken and be dead by nightfall. What was also interesting is that people would have a foreboding that something awful was about to happen. Some survived…such as Anne Boleyn who caught the Sweating Sickness in 1527 or 1528…imagine if she had died? Would Henry have broken with Rome? I love historical “what ifs”.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
August 16, 2021 8:31 am

DrBG, the buttons are there, but you need to exit mobile version at the bottom of page.

Thanks, Dover.

Mother Lode
Mother Lode
August 16, 2021 8:34 am

That drawing of Rowe’s is quite illuminating – a candle in the black gloom of his brain.

He really wants you to know who he dislike. Serious portraits of people, including dignified ones of past PM’s Hawke and Keating.

But Howard and Abbott are outright caricatures. As is Trump. Decked out with all the boring things Rowe thought mockable about them. Howard is in there twice. And Bronwyn Bishop – with a helicopter joke. Apparently that is more remarkable than so many other things that have happened over the last 70 years.

I don’t think Gough is there, although what I took to be Kerr might be the reference to that time. Nothing happened in Gough’s imperium that might have displaced Bishop.

But there are two other caricatures – just not mocking ones. In the wheels of Abbott’s bike there is a Rudd and a Gillard, drawn as if they are the ones that are making the wheels move. Is this a hint that he considers Abbott had an easier ride thanks to the efforts of those two?

Megan
Megan
August 16, 2021 8:34 am

Good to find Tom’s ‘toons on here this morning. Thanks Tom, and DB for the venue.

Mother Lode
Mother Lode
August 16, 2021 8:35 am

Much easier to type my ramblings on this website rather than Discord.

It feels more like home.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
August 16, 2021 8:41 am

The economic impacts of Plague (of any sort) are always interesting. Serf populations were able to declare their freedom and sell their labour, and gain the land, careers and incomes of those gone. Major social changes ensued, sumptuary laws (status indicators) diminished or were abandonned and the structures of the Church and its theology also had to adapt.

The Justinian plague may have altered the course of the West. The Emperor in the East was in the process of reclaiming the Roman Mediterranean when it happened, a process which then abruptly ended. The barbarian tribes seized the moment (less affected as less urban) and took Gaul, Spain and Italy. North Africa entered terminal decline.

Gab
Gab
August 16, 2021 8:43 am

Can anyone tell me how we know if someone has replied to your comment a few hours ago? Are we notified or is it just a matter of scrolling up intermittently?

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 8:45 am

How did church theology change as the result of the plaque Lizzie?

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 8:46 am

Nesting has now been removed DB said, I think.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
August 16, 2021 8:49 am

Last nite Hairy and I watched (on SBS) a double feature on the great structures of Ancient Rome. Those Romans were certainly great builders, and some of their techniques as shown in this show were very sophisticated using ingenuity and ‘home made’ engineering equipment – levels, theodolites etc. We were fascinated by the review of Arles, for we had visited the Baths of Constantine there and the ruins left are very impressive indeed. Hairy, with his geographical mapping hat on, noted how the city sites that developed were all on significant trade routes, showing that as Rome’s Imperial grasp was fading by the third century, the traditional army was in decline and fewer slaves were available from conquests, the emphasis moved from production to trade as a means of wealth creation. Hence the rise of the great trading cities on the rivers and of course Constantinople itself on the Silk Road. The bigger picture is always fascinating.

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 8:49 am

Plague plaque

It’s a thing.

Gab
Gab
August 16, 2021 8:53 am

The Aged has an article this morning regarding the ”National Socialists”, a group of apparently ”white supremacists”. The Aged insts on referring to them as ”far right” despiste the word Socialist in the name of the group. Orwellian..

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
August 16, 2021 8:59 am

Rosie, I have read interpretations of the fourteenth century plague saying that the Church became less remote and in a sense less held in awe, that clergy who stayed to assist were lauded, and that local clergy became more significant to people than the more remote affiliations to higher clergy such as bishops etc who had often fled to safety in the country with the aristocracy. Some suggest that this led to a further growth in the ‘direct’ relationship with the deity that was being sought at the time by protestants, to the reading of the bible in local languages by local populations, and that a new version of the old Catholic hierarchy emerged, including new theologies. There seems to have been an indirect but probably real connection of the plague and its famines with the desire for a new order in both society and the Church. Of course, this is endlessly debatable.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
August 16, 2021 9:04 am

Hairy pondered to me that the Roman engineers must have had some system of computation that didn’t involve Roman numerals, as you couldn’t do the maths necessary for some of those buildings without one. Imagine, he says, trying to divide by Roman numerals. Any engineers here know? I suspect that the Romans took something useful in that line from the Greeks, the original good builders, and that the Greeks may having taken something there in the number line from the Persians.

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 9:04 am

I’m not sure of your use of the word theology there.

Doctrine didn’t change and I think back then, plagues aside, everyone was aware you could be hale and hearty in the morning and dead as a doornail that night.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
August 16, 2021 9:05 am

Great site, Dover, thanks. I am off to my online dance class now. 🙂

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
August 16, 2021 9:06 am

ps Dover, whenever I comment the site takes me back to the previous page, not the page on which the comment has occurred. Is this a bug, or a feature?

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
August 16, 2021 9:11 am

Luther thought he was writing ‘theology’ Rosie. I use it in that sense. There is more than one sort of theology, even within Christianity.

Bruce of Newcastle
Bruce of Newcastle
August 16, 2021 9:12 am

Good article on the ineffectiveness of masks.

Do Masks Work? A Review Of The Evidence (15 Aug)

Worth bookmarking.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
August 16, 2021 9:13 am

With regard to changes in Catholic Scholasticism, I think Dover is better qualified than I to comment. 🙂

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 9:19 am

Philosophy isn’t theology.

The deposit of faith remains unchanged.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
August 16, 2021 9:22 am

plagues aside, everyone was aware you could be hale and hearty in the morning and dead as a doornail that night.

I think plagues are different though to normal appreciations of life and death. When the whole social order seems to have gone beserko then people become very querying of what has gone before that might have led to this. Currently I am reanalysing Gildas, whose fifth century writing provide a prime example of explaining social change in terms of the strictures of Jerimiah – for Gildas wrote a Jerimiad, explaining the problems of the immediate post-Roman period in Britain as necessarily due to previous sinning of heretical Christians who rejected the teachings gifted by the Romans – which was a common way for people to interpret disasters. It’s either that, or in British history at least, the development of ideas of a Joshua figure, as the Historia Brittonum in the ninth century developed around the name of Arthur – seen as a Christian saviour figure – developing a good press for the Welsh in contrast to the picture of a ‘sinning’ population promulgated by Gildas. Major cataclysms do affect how people think about things: Atenatan during the 1400bc period when Santorini blew is one example, Arthur (the sun god) dying during the 536 explosion and volcanic winter that followed that killed off sun gods world-wide.

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 9:22 am

It doesn’t matter what Luther thought.

There can only be one truth.
Still it is quite possible the various plagues did influence the 1001 theologies of various sects.

No doubt other human calamities have had the same effect.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
August 16, 2021 9:27 am

Yes. Seeking to know the Divine Order is common after disasters. Thornton Wilder’s little novella “The Bridge at San Luis Reay” is one of the best things I have read about this within a traditional South American Catholic context. Very moving.

Shy Ted
Shy Ted
August 16, 2021 9:37 am

Sigh, man bun clip of the day.
May the best Cat win and that’s absolutely no sleight to those who have worked hard to keep things going.
Cats know.

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 9:41 am

I watched a Mexican movie the other night

English translation of the title is Hell.
El infierno in Spanish iirc.

About a guy who spent twenty years in the US and thought he might return home and open an English school.

He gets robbed on the bus, then robbed again by corrupt police and things deteriorate from there.

No one got a pass in the movie, the not even really lip service Christianity was sad.

One of those movies that you keep thinking about long after watching it.

Dr Faustus
Dr Faustus
August 16, 2021 9:42 am

Eye of a needle?

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 9:46 am

I think there are a couple of people at dash cat who see their raison d’etre as driving away people they don’t like.

Nothing to do with robust debate or earnest discussion.

Just a hit list.

It doesn’t make for entertaining reading.

Arky
August 16, 2021 9:50 am

Test

Roger
Roger
August 16, 2021 9:56 am

The deposit of faith remains unchanged.

——————

Cardinal Newman would disagree.

He developed [sic!] a theory to account for the additions over time.

A very slippery customer.

Some call him the father of Vatican II.

Zipster
Zipster
August 16, 2021 9:59 am

dash-cat has gone moderated

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 10:01 am

I disagree with your assessment of Blessed Cardinal Newman ‘s explanation of how Catholics have developed a deeper appreciation of our faith, thanks Roger.

And of course there is nothing in the great contradictory mess outside the Church that offers the slightest temptation.

Eddystone
Eddystone
August 16, 2021 10:05 am

dover0beach says:
August 16, 2021 at 8:24 am

ABC shamelessly reporting the death of 15 year old with meningococcal as death with COVID.

As is the Australian.

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 10:14 am

As for pcr test covid influenza debate.

Someone is lying and someone is telling the truth.

And some people are so invested in making everything a conspiracy they leave their good sense at the door.

Roger
Roger
August 16, 2021 10:26 am

I disagree with your assessment of Blessed Cardinal Newman ‘s explanation of how Catholics have developed a deeper appreciation of our faith, thanks Roger.

——————-

Yes, I suspected we would agree to disagree on that. You should know that my low appreciation of Newman and my estimate of him as “slippery” is based on the violence he did to the 39 Articles. To his credit, at least, he finally relaised his position in the Church of England was untenable.

But the fact remains that Newman recognised a problem with Catholicism and attempted to find a solution. That solution enabled many intellectuals to join or remain in the Catholic Church, who then had their day at Vatican II, with disastrous results you would have to say. I remain unconvinced. If one is going to join a church based solely on its claims to have preserved the “faith once delivered” then the Orthodox have a sounder argument. They, rightly, regard Newman’s theory as a novelty (or at least the traditionalists do; every church body now has its conservative-liberal divide).

cohenite
August 16, 2021 10:37 am

So this is how the other half lives.

Thanks head prefect, you snitch, for tattle-tailing on me when I compared D-B to Friar Tuck.

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 10:39 am

I’m going with the Rock and the keys.

And as I always say

Which Orthodox?

Dr Faustus
Dr Faustus
August 16, 2021 10:51 am

plagues aside, everyone was aware you could be hale and hearty in the morning and dead as a doornail that night.

A fate still waiting for the unfortunate and the unwary.

Many years ago (although well into the era of modern medicine) a colleague perished from cholera in horrid circumstances – going from feeling a bit ‘off’, to heart failure from dehydration, in the space of 12 hours.

Bruce in WA
August 16, 2021 11:05 am

Glad to see the ABC has (probably through gritted teeth) amended its earlier reporting of the 15-y-o dying of Covid.

Chief health officer Kerry Chant confirmed he had been diagnosed with COVID.

“This has been cleared by his family. I can confirm that there is someone admitted to hospital that is 15 and that the cause of their admission, whilst they are COVID positive, is related to another health condition,” she said.

“The family has agreed that we can indicate that he has pneumococcal meningitis.”

Sydney’s Children Hospital said that while he was a confirmed COVID-19 case, it was not the cause of his death.

Gab
Gab
August 16, 2021 11:11 am

Just premiered … just beautiful

Rex Anger
Rex Anger
August 16, 2021 11:33 am

The Aged has an article this morning regarding the ”National Socialists”, a group of apparently ”white supremacists”. The Aged insts on referring to them as ”far right” despiste the word Socialist in the name of the group. Orwellian..

VVS Lenin and his ilk were the original gatekeepers.

‘Maintain the purity of the brand,’ seems to have been Communist Doctrine from the very beginning. So any frustrated soft-or non-Russocentric Communist (Hi, Benito Mussolini! Hi, Adolf’s early cronies!) who adopted the credo and methods with their own spin, was always going to be ‘Othered.’

And so here we are, a century later. Still as brand-conscious as ever, and even more so now that the Marxists have their strangleholds on the Establishment and popular culture…

cohenite
August 16, 2021 11:56 am

I’ll post this on both sites as it needs as much publicity as possible. Physical real property CTs as proof of ownership will cease at the end of October. It will be a debacle as the article explains; and note the smug reasons given by the relevant stooge/minister, Dominello, gives: to wit, people are implicitly too stupid to handles the CTs.

What will the abolition of physical CTs mean for Certificates held as security?

politichix
politichix
August 16, 2021 12:04 pm

It does feel very refined in here! Hope the extreme levels of politeness don’t last too long ?

Would love to see Steve Kates blogging here…

politichix
politichix
August 16, 2021 12:08 pm

Oh and thanks for the work DB, much appreciated. The question mark in my comment was a smiley emoji gone bad. Probably not such a bad thing (shrugging, blushing, winking, grimacing one)

Mother Lode
Mother Lode
August 16, 2021 12:21 pm

Would love to see Steve Kates blogging here

Yeah, I would like to see some of the economic and policy stuff that Doomy (of hallowed memory), Kates, Rafe etc used to post.

I learned economics at school, so even though I had an intuition that much of what was being passed off as policy was nonsense it was the Cat that introduced me to the concepts that let it all make sense.

Vicki
Vicki
August 16, 2021 12:23 pm

Just a thought…..for those who have been unsettled by the sudden appearance of anti-semitic & ultra right comments on Adam’s revamped Cat blog…..

There are increasing reports of neo-nazi groups increasing in recent times OS, and more recently in Oz. Participants are mostly young men.

This may be in response to the Woke takeover of the square in countries in the West – particularly in response to BLM. But it may well be exacerbated by the astonishing rise of authoritarian government as a result of Covid19.

Either way, it is a depressing phenomenon.

It has also troubled me that such sentiment has infiltrated into Cat blogssince it may also serve to discredit libertarian and classically conservative thought.

Pedro the Loafer
Pedro the Loafer
August 16, 2021 12:26 pm

The Dorpers led me here.

Who said sheep are stupid?

Arky
August 16, 2021 12:30 pm

Reposting from the Adam cat:
..
And so it turns out that after all, our governments COULD regulate the movements of peoples, they just refused to do so when it came to people smugglers and wealthy foreigners wanting to enter our nations illegally.
Compare and contrast people.
They do the things they want to do ruthlessly. The things they promise to do but don’t really want to do, they do hardly at all.
..
Year after year we saw migrants landing in Europe by boat, greeted with open arms, saw our suburbs bought up by the children of the CCP here on dubious grounds, saw amnesties for illegal aliens in the USA, after tens of millions of arrivals, causing depressed wages and idiotically high real estate prices. No one in government gave a damn about the pleas from their citizens adversely affected by this shit.
Now we see that given the excuse to acerbate even more the conditions of their own citizens and voters by doing so, these pigs. THESE PIGS. Have no hesitation in making the free movement or even legitimate travel of their own people impossible. They are illegitimate. These events have rendered our governing “elites” illegitimate.
Stop obeying them.

Mother Lode
Mother Lode
August 16, 2021 12:34 pm

Bird has had his infirmity for a long time.

Before I was at the Cat it would seem he was valued and insightful member of the Cat community, but something went wrong.

It is utterly unhinged. I cannot fathom how a person can think in those terms, or how they can be persuaded to the whole nonsense.

How is it that a person is convinced, what evidence unambiguously compels a belief, that Da Jooz have been running everything from the shadows for millennia? And how many ideas do you have to throw out to make room for them? How many vile people, even peoples, do you have to let off the hook because it was really Da Jooz.

A healthy mind cannot do this.

Vicki
Vicki
August 16, 2021 12:42 pm

Hairy pondered to me that the Roman engineers must have had some system of computation that didn’t involve Roman numerals, as you couldn’t do the maths necessary for some of those buildings without one. Imagine, he says, trying to divide by Roman numerals. Any engineers here know? I suspect that the Romans took something useful in that line from the Greeks, the original good builders, and that the Greeks may having taken something there in the number line from the Persians.

I laughed a lot years ago when I read a letter of Cicero to his friend Atticus in which he complained bitterly about the builder of his villa in the countryside not being able to use a plumb-bob correctly! Just wonderful. All the years that separate us just melt away.

Cassie of Sydney
August 16, 2021 12:45 pm

“Either way, it is a depressing phenomenon.

It has also troubled me that such sentiment has infiltrated into Cat blogssince it may also serve to discredit libertarian and classically conservative thought.”

Well said Vicki…this was the sentiment expressed by C.L. yesterday when he sadly departed Adam’s Cat. I hope to see C.L. here.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
August 16, 2021 12:58 pm

It has also troubled me that such sentiment has infiltrated into Cat blogssince it may also serve to discredit libertarian and classically conservative thought.”

He’s just a whacko. It’s a bit of a shock to meet a whacko, at least the first time. You try to reason with them until you realise that there’s nothing to reach by reason. Then you cut them out of your life because it’s just too horrible to have any dealings with them.

You shouldn’t treat them as normal people who have simply made a mistake in thinking something through. The only thing you can learn from them is that some brains don’t work properly and there’s nothing we can do about it with the present level of medical knowledge.

Bruce in WA
August 16, 2021 1:03 pm

Let’s put things into perspective:

Medical experts today were asked if it is time to ease the COVID lockdowns.

Allergists were in favour of scratching it, but dermatologists advised against making any rash moves.

Gastroenterologists had a sort of a gut feeling about it, but neurologists thought the government lacked the nerve.

Obstetricians felt certain everyone was labouring under a misconception, while ophthalmologists considered the idea shortsighted.

Some pathologists were heard to say, “Over my dead body!” while paediatricians said, “Oh, grow up!”

Psychiatrists thought the whole idea was madness, while radiologists said they could see right through it.

Surgeons decided to wash their hands of the whole thing and pharmacists claimed it would be a bitter pill to swallow.

Plastic surgeons opined that this proposal would “put a whole new face on the matter”.

Podiatrists thought it was a step forward, but urologists were pissed off by the whole idea.

Anaesthetists thought the whole idea was a gas, while cardiologists didn’t have the heart to say no.

In the end, the proctologists won out, leaving the decision up to the arseholes in politics.

Gab
Gab
August 16, 2021 1:03 pm

Dover, just ask Sinclair for Steve’s email

Arky
August 16, 2021 1:04 pm

Mouse Utopia. Why Utopia can’t exist:
(The dude narrating seems to miss the point a bit)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m7X-1V9nOs

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
August 16, 2021 1:08 pm

Gab, that was a lovely piece on the Latin Mass. I do appreciate more now what it means to Catholic people. I think you are so right to want to hang on to it. Such things form a wonderful part of childhood and I am glad that new entrants are bringing their children in to it. I have never forgotten my own introduction to the High Church of England, in England, briefly, when I was eleven, via the Sunday School (child-minding). The incense and the singing in the medieval building as well as the priests richly clad all impressed me so much. I went to a local Church in Australia when I first left home at fourteen, because my Big Sis (a whole year older) insisted we had to look decent to live alone and for me not to end in Parramatta Girls Home should ‘the welfare’ call. How right she was. The C of E Church at that time used the King James Bible and the beautiful Book of Common Prayer. I just loved the language of it, I still do, it can produce wonderful reflection, and we both met boyfriends at the weekly Church Fellowship!

That, and the love of ballet, put me in touch with a world of music way beyond what I was experiencing everyday in those outer Western suburbs at that time. It was a long journey away from there, but both my first and now my second husbands were highly musical and Church trained: Hairy was even a chorister in Britain’s famed Temple Church Choir, imbued with glorious traditions. I have been very lucky in my life.

If my memories are seen as some form of self-aggranizement (pace Johanna) then so be it.
They are important to me as I reach towards the end stage of my life and I hope sharing them in matters religous is OK here. One of the things I’ve like about the Old Cat has been meeting people of deep religious faith.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
August 16, 2021 1:13 pm

Bruce of WA, that made me laugh.

We have to laugh in order to keep on going.

Bruce in WA
August 16, 2021 1:23 pm

Darwin, Katherine and Palmerston have been thrown into a snap three day lockdown from midday on Monday after the Northern Territory recorded one new Covid case.

The new case is a man in his 30s who is believed to have spent time in the community while infectious, but the source of the infection remains a mystery.

Authorities fear he may have been contagious while travelling in a local taxi and an Uber whose drivers then worked throughout the community.

The man had flown into Australia from overseas and spent 14 days in hotel quarantine in Sydney before travelling to the Top End on business.

John H.
John H.
August 16, 2021 1:26 pm

Mother Lodesays:
August 16, 2021 at 12:34 pm
Bird has had his infirmity for a long time.

Before I was at the Cat it would seem he was valued and insightful member of the Cat community, but something went wrong.

It is utterly unhinged. I cannot fathom how a person can think in those terms, or how they can be persuaded to the whole nonsense.

How is it that a person is convinced, what evidence unambiguously compels a belief, that Da Jooz have been running everything from the shadows for millennia? And how many ideas do you have to throw out to make room for them? How many vile people, even peoples, do you have to let off the hook because it was really Da Jooz.

A healthy mind cannot do this.

I’ve come across such people a few times. They haunt various forums to promote their eccentric and often comical ideas. Usually they are of at least superior intelligence and demonstrate a degree of frustration that their superior intellect has not been recognised by the wider community. One of their more common habits is to attack authority figures in various fields by putting forward contrarian views that are typically specious. Physicists and neuroscientists frequently receive many emails from them. They are armchair experts which rarely if ever have to put their views to the test.

I don’t think Bird has a psychiatric disorder but he doesn’t have a healthy mind.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
August 16, 2021 1:29 pm

Mouse Utopia. Why Utopia can’t exist:
(The dude narrating seems to miss the point a bit)

It’s interesting to speculate that neither mice nor human beans can survive utopia. Utopia can exist and we’ve got pretty close to it in the West. Maybe the lack of problems to overcome is lethal. This would explain why the more creative mice survived longer; they saw more problems, maybe went looking for them.

I’ll be OK. There’s more than enough problems in my life, the biggest at the moment is how to bring about a revolution so rabz can have his HoP time.

Bushkid
Bushkid
August 16, 2021 1:31 pm

Another New Cat…

Well, nothing wrong with cats of course. Thanks, Dover!

Armadillo
Armadillo
August 16, 2021 1:40 pm

This dude seems a little bit pissed off with Dementia Joe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ-P_nM_WUM

MatrixTransform
August 16, 2021 1:48 pm

Ah, Beautiful Ones.

that mouse video …

is clearly an allegory for what eventually happens to all versions of The Catallaxy Live Online Novel Experiments (or, CLONEs for short)

Armadillo
Armadillo
August 16, 2021 2:09 pm

The fact that the Taliban will be selling completely intact US military equipment to the highest bidder is a scary thought. Fighter jets, helicopters, humvees and just general kit and ammunition.

It must be like a technological Christmas for the Chinese, Russians, Iranians and Pakistanis. so much stuff to reverse engineer and improve on.

Top Ender
Top Ender
August 16, 2021 2:13 pm

The Lindbergh who took to the water

Jon Lindbergh

While American aviator Charles Lindbergh conquered the skies, his son, Jon, went in the other direction, exploring the oceans and underwater caverns.

He made the first successful cave dive in the US, demonstrated that humans could survive underwater for prolonged periods and helped to recover an American hydrogen bomb lost off the coast of Spain.

Lindbergh was still a student when in May 1953 he explored Bower Cave near Yosemite National Park and volunteered to dive into a submerged tunnel to see where it would lead.

Wearing a frogman’s rubber suit and fins, and breathing with an air tank, he made three trips underwater on different days. On the third he ventured about 45 metres through a dark passage before coming out in a previously unknown underwater chamber. Later, he emerged from the water soaked, having torn a hole in the seat of his frogman’s suit.

Lindbergh, whose only link on the dive was a rope, described with joy how stalactites never seen before by human eyes gleamed above the water, dripping from the limestone ceiling.

Beneath the surface was like being part of a new world. “You are almost like a fish and you see underwater surroundings with a different perspective that isn’t just like swimming or looking down into water,” he said. “You have a fish’s-eye view of things.”

In 1964 Lindbergh and Robert Stenuit, a Belgian underwater archaeologist, set a record by spending 49 hours at 131m during the “Man in Sea” experiment in the Bahamas. By breathing a mixture of helium and oxygen they were able to swim outside their rubber undersea “tent”, or decompression chamber, without any ill-effects, while in the quieter moments he sent telegrams to his children from below the waves.

That experience proved useful in 1966 when a US bomber flying over the coast of Spain hit a refuelling tanker in mid-air and accidentally dropped four hydrogen bombs that parachuted down without detonating. One fell into the sea and Lindbergh joined a recovery mission in an Alvin deepocean submersible.

Another time he was part of a salvage team when a C-130 transport plane was shot down into the sea during the Vietnam War.

Lindbergh never ceased to be amazed by the wonders of the seas, writing articles for American magazines about the species he encountered. “You often see long chains of small animals strung together. Ribbon-like, sea serpent-like things,” he observed in Popular Science magazine. “You see ocean sunfish occasionally – the big, round, 8ft diameter Mola molas – and occasional sharks. You see octopuses if you look for them in the rocks.”

Jon Morrow Lindbergh was born in New York in August 1932, five months after the kidnap and murder of his older brother, Charles, aged 20 months, in what was described as the “crime of the century”. Jon’s name, apparently chosen from a book of Scandinavian history, was kept secret for two months.

His parents were celebrities: Charles Lindbergh had made the first non-stop flight from New York to Paris in 1927 and Anne (nee Morrow) was the first American woman to acquire a glider pilot’s licence.

They were anxious to protect their new son, and with good reason: Jon was six months old when two men were charged with threatening to kidnap him and trying to extort $50,000 from the family. When he was three, a car in which he was a passenger was run off the road.

The continuing hysteria surrounding his brother’s death drove the family to sail for Europe in 1936. They lived at Long Barn, their 14th-century home in Kent, but continued to be pursued by the press before eventually finding peace on Ile Illiec, off the coast of Brittany. Jon recalled it as being “a relatively small island, very rocky, windswept. I used to enjoy digging razor clams, looking for abalone”. He was four when Bruno Hauptmann, the killer of the brother he had never known, was sent to the electric chair.

Lindbergh had four more siblings: Land, who leads a private life; Anne, a writer who died in 1993; Scott, a conservationist; and Reeve, also a writer.

“The kidnapping was always sort of in the background,” Lindbergh said of their childhood. “I don’t think any of us had the freedom to mix around with the local neighbourhood, as my children for instance did.” Lindbergh also had seven half-siblings from his father’s mistresses.

In 1939 the family returned to the US, where Lindbergh Sr, who was suspected of being a Nazi sympathiser, advocated a noninterventionist stance on the war in Europe. By then their public profile had dropped and Charles allowed his son to go exploring. “He let me take a small boat out on Long Island Sound, under bad weather most of the year,” Jon said. More adventures followed. “He taught me how to fly, let me take a parachute jump once. He was flying the plane.”

He was educated at Darien High School, Connecticut, and craved excitement. At 15 he spent a summer sleeping rough in Europe. He also spent three summers in Colorado riding, hiking and shooting the rapids.

While studying marine biology at Stanford University, California, he rented a piece of land nearby in Los Trancos Woods and lived in a tent for almost four years. He cooked on a camping stove, drew water from the creek and used the woods for his lavatory. Self-caught rattlesnake was his preferred diet: fried, barbecued, curried or stewed.

In late 1953 he was leading a group up Mt Shasta in California when one of their number was killed falling into an icy crevasse. Lindbergh led the recovery party that brought his friend’s body down from the mountain.

The following year he married Barbara Robbins, a fellow student; for their wedding breakfast he caught three lobsters, “a characteristic gesture of self-reliance”, according to a profile in Redbook magazine.

Like his parents, they had six children: Kristina, Wendy, Lars, Leif, Erik (who also became an aviator) and Morgan.

On graduating from college he joined the regular navy and worked as a frogman in an underwater demolitions team. He appeared in the film Underwater Warrior (1958) and the television series Sea Hunt with Lloyd Bridges.

Later he became a commercial diver and took a job on the Seattle regional water treatment system, working at depths of 182m in the bitterly cold water. He settled there in the late 1960s, buying a secluded Georgian-style home on Bainbridge Island, and began farming salmon, later expanding the operation to Chile.

Lindbergh’s first marriage was dissolved in 1981 and two years later he married Karen Pryor, an animal trainer. That was dissolved in 1997 and he married Maura Jansen, a vet in West Virginia, who survives him with their twin daughters, Anne and Alena.

When Charles Lindbergh was nearing the end of his life, his son arranged for him to be taken to Hawaii, where he died in 1974. The older man confided that he was relieved Jon had not followed him into aviation. “Thirty years ago, piloting an aircraft was an art,” he said, adding that it had ceased to be fun.

Like his father in later life, Lindbergh became a passionate conservationist. Writing in Life magazine in 1967 he described his encounters with whales.

“All advanced life utilises other life to sustain its own survival. Whales consume plankton and squid, and man in turn consumes whales as he consumes cattle and sheep,” he wrote. “Only we must remember what we have so grievously ignored in the past: you cannot take more whales than the survivors in the sea can replace.”

THE TIMES

Oz

Top Ender
Top Ender
August 16, 2021 2:18 pm

The fact that the Taliban will be selling completely intact US military equipment to the highest bidder is a scary thought. Fighter jets, helicopters, humvees and just general kit and ammunition.

The first two don’t stand much chance of getting into Taliban hands ‘Dillo.

They aren’t transportable unless you have the right vehicles, or can fly them. From what I have read there seems to be zero members of the “Afghan Army” and associated air components who were qualified on them.

Dr Faustus
Dr Faustus
August 16, 2021 2:26 pm

Hairy pondered to me that the Roman engineers must have had some system of computation that didn’t involve Roman numerals, as you couldn’t do the maths necessary for some of those buildings without one. Imagine, he says, trying to divide by Roman numerals. Any engineers here know?

Roman engineers used an abacus and a reckoning board.

Winston Smith
August 16, 2021 2:38 pm

Arky:
Very interesting video on the Mouse Utopia.
Perhaps the lesson to take away from it is the lack of purpose in life.
We need constraints to our civilisation just so we can beat them.
This explains our growth during the Moon Race era, and also describes the stultifying effect of NASA failing to produce the goods. “Reaching out to Islam?” Good luck with that!
Thank God for the privateer space companies – they may save more than we bargain for.

Armadillo
Armadillo
August 16, 2021 2:42 pm

The first two don’t stand much chance of getting into Taliban hands ‘Dillo.

Pretty sure I’ve seen reports where they left behind Black Hawks.

They aren’t transportable unless you have the right vehicles, or can fly them

Buyer must collect. COD.

Regardless, surely you put a “kill switch” on a multi million dollar piece of military equipment? Pretty sure I saw a general explaining about how when the Russians left, the Taliban kept (and then hid) a heap of Stinger missiles the CIA had provided. The US eventually recovered them, but because they had been buried for so many years, they didn’t work.

Delta A
Delta A
August 16, 2021 2:43 pm

Test.

rickw
rickw
August 16, 2021 2:52 pm

How’s the Taliban in Baghram and Kabul Melbourne and Sydney working out for everyone?

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 2:54 pm

Bird isn’t the only off the wall loon at dash cat.
I wish he could control himself. Certainly have more sympathy for him than some of the others.

In the meantime the Melbourne noose is tightened again as Dan puts off the inevitable at incalculable cost.

More pub crawls, more engagement parties please.

Winston Smith
August 16, 2021 2:55 pm

Also, can people let me know if they like or dislike the nested comment format. I think it saves having to quote replies to existing comments as you can reply directly (there are also other benefits to this) or do you prefer the old format?

I prefer the nested thingy.
I’d also like a down button – feedback is valuable in making one think about ones posts.
I’d also like a pony.
Thanks Santa.

Eddystone
Eddystone
August 16, 2021 2:59 pm

dover0beach says:
August 16, 2021 at 12:47 pm

Would love to see Steve Kates blogging here

Me too. I have an old email address and messaged him but I’m not sure if he’s s still using it. Steve, if you’re lurking, or anyone has am alternative means of contact, let him know that I and others would love to have him aboard. He can contact me here.

He blogs at Law of Markets.

Rex Anger
Rex Anger
August 16, 2021 3:02 pm

Pretty sure I’ve seen reports where they left behind Black Hawks.

Whoch are great, right up to the point where you execute all the pilots, fitters, avionics techs and trainers for lack of purity/loyalty/piety, or the fuel and spares run out first. Or your local rivals shoot them all down or mortar them to death.

Note that we never, ever saw ISIS make use of any captured armour or other equipment from the Syrian, Turkish or Iraqi armies, beyond very cursory attempts at local use or showing off their gains for international TV crews. It was all Toyotas, personal small arms and any crew-served heavy weapons that could be bolted, welded ormotherwise shoe-horned into said Toyotas.

That sort of heavy equipment requires a degree of logistics and organisation well beyond the capabilities of most guerrilla forces. So, the Hummers and trucks and UAZs left in depot by fleeing militaries will immediately be put to use, but the tanks, planes, choppers, multiple rocket launchers and big tube artillery, etc. will typically be left to rot. The munitions will certainly be repurposed, but the big stuff takes too much skilled labour to operate and maintain.

As to ‘kill-switches’ and your Stinger example, all explosives and munitions of even a ‘dumb’ nature (like ThirldnWorld-uniquitous RPG warheads and 7.62mm and 5.45mm small-arms cartidges) have a shelf life that will be seriously eroded by crappy or lackadaisical storage conditions. I am unsurprised that 80s or 90s-era Stingers stored in a hole for 20+ would not even deign to ignite. No kill-switch required. Chemistry and entropy will do the dirty work for you…

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 3:03 pm

No down button please Dover.

We all know exactly what will happen.

All the trolls will rush out from under the bridge.

Winston Smith
August 16, 2021 3:04 pm

Mother Lode:

It is a common misconception that people in the middle ages did not brush their teeth. I heard that even for the least of people they could snap a twig off a tree and burr the end on a rock surface so the wood fibres formed bristles.

Still a common practice in many Middle Eastern countries today.

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 3:05 pm

People can, politely or otherwise, disagree with others by making a comment.

rickw
rickw
August 16, 2021 3:15 pm

So, the Hummers and trucks and UAZs left in depot by fleeing militaries will immediately be put to use, but the tanks, planes, choppers, multiple rocket launchers and big tube artillery, etc. will typically be left to rot. The munitions will certainly be repurposed, but the big stuff takes too much skilled labour to operate and maintain.

The Afghans collected up all the equivalent Russian gear and parked it in huge allotments for exactly the same reason.

Baba
Baba
August 16, 2021 3:20 pm

Dear Baba,

When I last wrote to you, I expressed hope that the legal farce I face might soon be over.

Unfortunately, today the New South Wales Local Court ruled that Part 3A of the NCAT Act has retrospective application.

This means that on 21 November this year I will face Court under a law passed in 2017 in New South Wales for statements I made about marriage, family and morality in Queensland in 2014.

I potentially face $300,000 in fines for those statements.

To make matters worse, the New South Wales Anti-Discrimination Board has also just referred a new complaint from Garry Burns to the Tribunal, which also carries another potential $100,000 fine.

The heart of the new complaint against me, as detailed below, is for these words posted in a comment by a third party on my Facebook page detailed

“[EDIT] supports bernard Garynor”

Apparently, the Thought Police believe that I have vilified homosexuals by allowing that comment on my Facebook page because it links to a page which then links to other pages which the most offended man in the world is, you guessed it, offended by.

Strangely, neither the person who left the comment or the people who actually run any of these other pages are subject to this complaint. Just me. That’s what the Anti-Discrimination Board has decided because that’s what Garry Burns wants.

It’s beyond vexatious obsession and it’s being empowered by the New South Wales Department of Justice.

To be honest, these latest developments are a huge blow.

For almost a decade now I have been hoping to move on with my life. And for almost a decade now the New South Wales legal system and the politicians who oversee it (with the exception of Mark Latham) have allowed this unjust farce to continue.

So I will need to keep fighting.

I have instructed my legal team to appeal today’s decision, to defend the latest complaint and to counter-attack.

I hope to be able to provide you more details about that counter-attack soon enough.

I ask for your continued help in this fight.

Please, if you can, donate here. I cannot continue without your support and generosity.

https://www.bernardgaynor.com.au/partner/

And, please, keep me and my family in your prayers at this time.

Kind regards,

Bernard Gaynor
Christus Rex!

feelthebern
feelthebern
August 16, 2021 3:28 pm

When you come to Dover’s Cat for the first time it’s like when John Mclane walks into the Christmas party at Nakatomi Plaza.
Mclane “Nice place you have here”
Takagi “It will be when it’s finished”

feelthebern
feelthebern
August 16, 2021 3:30 pm

Malice has owned twitter today.

Cassie of Sydney
August 16, 2021 3:34 pm

“Malice has owned twitter today.”

I just love him.

Eddystone
Eddystone
August 16, 2021 3:36 pm

How to count covid cases

208
+248
=4416

From Steve’s blog

Professor Higgins
Professor Higgins
August 16, 2021 3:42 pm

Was anyone else left scratching their heads at AdamD’s “You People Are Animals” post over at Dash-Cat?
He has had a couple of ferals (one in particular) running riot, which he has tacitly acknowledged by scrubbing scores of comments, then issues a general broadside about having to impose rules and moderation, without mentioning the Big Bird in the room.
Something he was warned about in advance and done sfa about himself for three weeks.
Not particularly impressed.

Armadillo
Armadillo
August 16, 2021 3:46 pm
Cassie of Sydney
August 16, 2021 3:47 pm

“Professor Higginssays:
August 16, 2021 at 3:42 pm”

Well I haven’t been looking at Adam’s Cat much today. I’m happy here. I feel very safe and secure here as well.

areff
areff
August 16, 2021 3:48 pm

Vicki: Re Roman mathematics — your question reminded me of Father Byrne, Form 2 Latin master and sadistic prick (may the bastard burn in hell), who had his terrified charges work on various Latin tracts, one of which, as I recall, was on the Romans’ use of the abacus. No need to grapple with XXVII x CLIV.

feelthebern
feelthebern
August 16, 2021 3:53 pm

Professor Higgins, are you a real professor?
Or are you a doctor like Jill Biden is a doctor?

h/t Michael Malice

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
August 16, 2021 4:05 pm

Thanks, Dr. Faustus, for your answer to my enquiry about Roman maths and building things that stayed standing. The Abacus, of course, from Persia and/or over along the Silk Roads from China. And a Reckoning Board. Hard to see how monetary trade could have continued without some means of sorting out the change. Expansive architecure obviously was to follow. The Abacus was the foundation too of all banking. 🙂

Muz
Muz
August 16, 2021 4:06 pm

Vicki 12.23pm:

The media reports of far-right neo-nazi groups surging in this country, as the media reports in the US of “domestic terrorists”, are part of the systematic propaganda we have been fire hosed with since April 2020. Governments pay media millions for advertising (mainly headlines and campaign images of covid fear). Don’t accept anything at face value.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
August 16, 2021 4:11 pm

Re embedded replies, I don’t like them as there is too much scrolling back to see what is happening. So I’m glad Dover has dispensed with them. Anyone wanting to specifically check back on what they, or someone else, has said, can easily pick up back thread by doing a simple two-key Control f and writing the name of the person in the little box that appears. A yellow line will then appear on the scroll bar for the page showing where that person has commented. Of course, with these short pages you might have to page back a bit to get the time that the comment was made.

cohenite
August 16, 2021 4:16 pm

I’m happy here. I feel very safe and secure here as well.

Stay lean Cassie; it’s going to get worse before it gets better.

I missed Adam’s rant, but I identify as a variety of animals anyway so it would have been grist for the mill for me.

rosie
rosie
August 16, 2021 4:20 pm

I dunno Professor

Maybe people were relentlessly pressuring him for ban ‘people i don’t like’ and abusing the report comment thread.

Putting Graeme aside there is still a mosh pit element of snappers and snarlers.

As for the venom directed here by some.

What are they afraid of?

Bruce of Newcastle
Bruce of Newcastle
August 16, 2021 4:22 pm

Pretty sure I’ve seen reports where they left behind Black Hawks.

The Taliban were flying around in Mi-17s last week, in Kandahar. So they have some guys who can pilot a heli without stacking it.

feelthebern
feelthebern
August 16, 2021 4:23 pm

Malice has this ongoing bit when anyone starts to thank the technical staff he loudly interrupts with:
“Don’t acknowledge the help”.

Makes me laugh every time it happens.

1 2 3 7
  1. Here is a song from my youth. It all seemed so far away and exotic back then. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TYq9RjdYYU

  2. Greetings from Marrakesh. Penultimate day of my Moroccan holiday. Nice hotel overlooking the Royal Tennis Club of all things. I’ll…

  3. Knuckle Dragger May 26, 2024 11:43 pm Headline of the day:The Matildas and Arsenal weapon tasked with filling Kerr-sized hole…

  4. Headline of the day: The Matildas and Arsenal weapon tasked with filling Kerr-sized hole Fnarrr.

1.4K
0
Oh, you think that, do you? Care to put it on record?x
()
x