Open Thread – Weekend 21 Jan 2023


The Rocky Mountains Lander’s Peak, Albert Bierstadt, 1863


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Farmer Gez
Farmer Gez
January 23, 2023 7:09 pm

Woke up being rooted and didn’t know it was happening?
She needs a doctor to find out why she’s developed paralysis overnight.
Making rape a farce is a disgrace.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 23, 2023 7:11 pm

What are these ‘internal sensors’?

You have, I conjecture, sensors like vision and hearing which pass information to your brain about the part of the universe outside your skin. You also have sensors, I hypothesise, telling your brain about the much smaller part inside your skin. I know I do. For example, one tells me when I need to take a pee. Others tell me where bits of my body are relative to other bits.

More specifically, I have processes which monitor damage: if I burn my finger on a cigar, I know about it.

Brains of human order do a lot of modelling of the world, correcting the models by sensory data. This applies to modelling the bit of the universe inside your skin, as well as the much larger bit outside. The latter modelling allows us to shin up a tree fast if we hear a low pitched growl, which aids survival in an obvious way. The former modelling when combined with modelling of other human beings allows me to hypothesise that stubbing out my cigar on your ear will cause you to feel pain, and behave much as I would if you stubbed out your cigar on my ear. This inclines me not to do it, which also conduces to my survival.

Ed Case
Ed Case
January 23, 2023 7:12 pm

Alan Komissaroff, Fox News SVP of News and Politics, Dies Following Sudden Heart Attack
[Variety]

Arky
January 23, 2023 7:12 pm

Descartes: “Cogito, ergo sum”.
Dr. BG: “I have a lot of relays, therefore I am”.
..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HiRz-c3vBE

Zipster
Zipster
January 23, 2023 7:13 pm

I’d prefer to imagine I’m Thor.

with those “cute owls” I am surprise you can sit for a week

Zipster
Zipster
January 23, 2023 7:23 pm

the ONS data could not be used to make any assertions about vaccine efficacy or safety.

34:00
the bastards are labeling vaxed that die within 2 weeks as unvaxed

what the stats actually show is a huge spike in death immediately after the rollout which were mislabeled as unvaxed deaths

JC
JC
January 23, 2023 7:25 pm

I don’t believe it has anything to do with what the kids go through in the Wharton MBA itself. I believe it has something to do with the kids’ selection process.MBAs generally aren’t great, but the school you go to in the US is a pretty decent predictor of smarts, and prestigious firms use it.

How would you use it in your work?

I never went through an MBA. My kid did, though, and although I kind of figured it out in a roughshod way, she asked me to help figure out the cost of capital and what would be an optimum capital structure. This included both an equity and debt mix, along with allowing for taxes in the structure. It’s really satisfying to work it out. 🙂

Would you need to use it in real life? Only if a person is a CFO, an equity analyst, or someone working in private equity.

Someone earlier mentioned whether an MBA is worthwhile. Moneywise, it is in the US. An MBA from a decent school can mean a salary base, stock options, etc. equal to US$250K a year. In New York City, for example, an intern or undergrad would be on US$80K. 

cohenite
January 23, 2023 7:25 pm

I imagine you as Lex Luthor

The important thing is you’re thinking about me.

Pogria
Pogria
January 23, 2023 7:25 pm

Alan Komissaroff, Fox News SVP of News and Politics, Dies Following Sudden Heart Attack
[Variety]

Suddenly, hey?

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 23, 2023 7:26 pm

Nuclear power plants would have a lot of internal sensors and an operating system.

True, they do. And if they did modelling of the values they got, and if you could talk to them, you’d quite likely think they have some degree of self awareness. After all, we grant it to m0nty on rather weak evidence.

I agree you need more than just the sensor suite, you also need it to try to model the world it sees, to be able to predict correlations. If the plant could also sense the presence and actions of human operators and was able to construct models, and if it could communicate via language, then you’d be able to decide whether to call it self-aware.

H B Bear
H B Bear
January 23, 2023 7:27 pm

“When i asked him to take me to the movies he started whispering “the horror, the horror” and then took off in his maita.

We’ll follow it up at the Helldrivers AGM.

Ed Case
Ed Case
January 23, 2023 7:27 pm

Injecting Freedom
V-Safe Part 1: After 464 Days, CDC Finally Coughed up Covid-19 Vaccine Safety Data Showing 7.7% of People Reported Needing Medical Care

Top Ender
Top Ender
January 23, 2023 7:27 pm

Unusual hobby!

YouTuber divers find missing man’s remains 6 years on

By MATTHEW DENHOLM
TASMANIA CORRESPONDENT

A pair of divers with a YouTube channel appear to have succeeded where an “extensive” police effort failed: to find the remains of a man missing for six years.

Two divers, part of a group called Downunder Dan Diving, on Monday announced they had found the car and remains of missing Tasmanian Dale Nicholson, who disappeared in the town of New Norfolk on December 10, 2016, aged 61.

The divers, part of a group that uses sonar to try to find the ­remains of missing people in ­vehicles underwater, said they made the find at 4.13pm on Sunday.

They had identified the spot – in the Derwent River in the middle of the town – as a possible ­location because it was at the bottom of a hill and bollards now in place were not present in 2016.

“(One of the divers) Dan dove and was able to confirm that not only was he (Mr Nicholson’s ­remains) in the vehicle with his fishing rods, but that he has been there for the last six years, about 150 to 200 yards from his home,” dive team member Bill McIntosh said. “The windows were wide open.”

It appeared a large pine tree and its roots had acted to keep the car in place and prevent it from being pummelled by debris carried by the tide.

“We’re just glad to be able to bring closure to the family; it’s a sense of relief for the four sisters (of Mr Nicholson) that we’ve found him,” he said. “They know where he is.”

The divers, who have 18,300 subscribers to their YouTube channel, said they called police about an hour after the discovery and that by 12.30am on Monday, the police had removed the car, a 1993 Ford Fairmont, and the remains.

“The Tasmania Police came in and they spared no expense; they worked so professionally,” diver Dan said. “They listened to us. They took our advice. And it was an absolute joy to work with those ladies and gentlemen.”

Tasmania Police confirmed the discovery. “Police can confirm human remains were located in New Norfolk on Sunday evening, in a vehicle registered to Dale Nicholson, who was reported missing in 2016,” TasPol said.

“Formal identification is yet to occur. A report will be prepared for the Coroner.”

One of Mr Nicholson’s sisters, Leanne Marshall, thanked the ­divers, who she said relied on ­donations for their work.

“Finally closure for us to be able to lay Dale to rest and not have to wonder and keep thinking where is he,” Ms Marshall was quoted as telling the ABC.

“It was such a shock he was found so close to home … he only lived around the corner.”

Police conducted “extensive searches” at the time of Mr Nicholson’s disappearance, both in the Derwent Valley and in the Central Highlands, where he ­reportedly liked to fish.

cohenite
January 23, 2023 7:29 pm

with those “cute owls” I am surprise you can sit for a week

It’s worth it.

H B Bear
H B Bear
January 23, 2023 7:29 pm

Allow me to help you correct your stupidity, Mr Sulu.

You just want to watch some more videos don’t you Groogs?

Arky
January 23, 2023 7:30 pm

DrBeauGan says:
January 23, 2023 at 7:11 pm
What are these ‘internal sensors’?
You have, I conjecture, sensors like vision and hearing which pass information to your brain about the part of the universe outside your skin.

..
So, if we disconnected your spinal cord, put out your eyes and hearing, you would become less self aware?
Or would you be aware that some madman had just mutilated you and be slightly pissed off about it?

Cassie of Sydney
January 23, 2023 7:32 pm

“Incoming New Zealand PM calls out Misogyny”

Oh well, Saint Jacinda got off easy when it comes to the misogyny stakes, at least she didn’t have a male opposition leader look at his watch.

But, as we saw (and still see) with Juliar Gillard, “misogyneeeeeeee” will now frame everything about Saint Jacinda. The truth is that everything she and her government touched failed, and failed abysmally, so her woke supporters in NZ, across the ditch and across the world, will now spend their time busily rewriting history so as to canonise her, every description will henceforth contain the word “misogyneeeeeeee”, so as to paint her as a “victim”, not of her own incompetence and nastiness (and she was very nasty), but of the evil right-wing and faaaaar-right. It’s a winning woke template.

Roger
Roger
January 23, 2023 7:32 pm

Incoming New Zealand PM calls out Misogyny

Speaking of which, the NZ press has dubbed him ‘Mr. 0.3%’.

That’s what he recently rated as NZ’s preferred PM.

JC
JC
January 23, 2023 7:33 pm

We’re looking for a painter as we need some painting done both inside and out? I’m offering WheatBix for breakfast and a ham and salad sanga for lunch along with a Coke No Sugar.

H B Bear
H B Bear
January 23, 2023 7:35 pm

Crotchless discovers similar fact evidence.

I would ask that you show Gargoogery MD QC greater professional courtesy please.

Ed Case
Ed Case
January 23, 2023 7:36 pm

Mr Sulu is an educated Moron.

Now, you shouldn’t blame him for that, since he can’t help it.

But, there’s no excuse for encouraging him.

cohenite
January 23, 2023 7:36 pm

I mean, Consensual Sex with someone one just met implies one can bareback her while she’s asleep, doesn’t it?

Now, you’re being really stupid.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 23, 2023 7:36 pm

So, if we disconnected your spinal cord, put out your eyes and hearing, you would become less self aware?

Those were examples of external sensors. Read more carefully.

Arky
January 23, 2023 7:37 pm

Beaugan, being able to respond to and process inputs, even inputs about oneself, and output a result, is not the same as being aware of your own existence.

Sancho Panzer
Sancho Panzer
January 23, 2023 7:41 pm

JCsays:

January 23, 2023 at 7:33 pm

We’re looking for a painter as we need some painting done both inside and out? I’m offering WheatBix for breakfast and a ham and salad sanga for lunch along with a Coke No Sugar.

Ridiculous!
Everyone knows painters won’t eat salad sangas.
That’s plasterers’ currency.
I’d suggest a ham and cheese toastie for painters.

Boambee John
Boambee John
January 23, 2023 7:41 pm

Miltonfsays:
January 23, 2023 at 6:27 pm
The UNSW MBA (AGSM) was the first such course and started during the Gorton era iirc. The Hilmer twerp used to teach there. The Sydney Uni one is a bit of an also ran. Macquarie had Hewson there- say no more. Most diddly squat unis were offering MBAs and probably still are.

According to a LinkedIn profile which he claims is not him, Homer Paxton has an MBA from the AGSM. He also is allegedly involved in banking in the “Greater Sydney area”. Does anyone know the truth about him?

H B Bear
H B Bear
January 23, 2023 7:41 pm

salad sanga

No wonder you can’t get a tradesman.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 23, 2023 7:41 pm

So, if we disconnected your spinal cord, put out your eyes and hearing, you would become less self aware?

Those are external sensors, which I then contrasted with internal sensors such as the kinesthetic sensors.

Thimk!

JC
JC
January 23, 2023 7:43 pm

Ridiculous!
Everyone knows painters won’t eat salad sangas.
That’s plasterers’ currency.
I’d suggest a ham and cheese toastie for painters.

How about a pie and sausage roll for lunch?
Anything more than freaking Wheatbix for breakie and I’m not “paying”!

Ed Case
Ed Case
January 23, 2023 7:43 pm

Here’s one for people interested in the history of WW2:

The LuftFlotte 2 raid on Bari

Sancho Panzer
Sancho Panzer
January 23, 2023 7:43 pm

H B Bearsays:

January 23, 2023 at 7:41 pm

salad sanga

No wonder you can’t get a tradesman.

Exactly.
My plumber reluctantly took the day-old cucumber sandwiches but I could tell he wasn’t happy about it.

Indolent
Indolent
January 23, 2023 7:44 pm
Arky
January 23, 2023 7:44 pm

Those are external sensors,

..
Those were the examples YOU gave.
..

You have, I conjecture, sensors like vision and hearing which pass information to your brain about the part of the universe outside your skin. You also have sensors, I hypothesise, telling your brain about the much smaller part inside your skin. I know I do. For example, one tells me when I need to take a pee. Others tell me where bits of my body are relative to other bits.

..
Are you now saying that all of the above is irrelevant to your model of self awareness?
What’s the new hypothesis?

H B Bear
H B Bear
January 23, 2023 7:45 pm

Fauxfacts never really recovered from that Hillmer egghead. Young Warwick and Laurie Connell couldn’t have done a worse job.

Dot
Dot
January 23, 2023 7:47 pm

Someone earlier mentioned whether an MBA is worthwhile. Moneywise, it is in the US. An MBA from a decent school can mean a salary base, stock options, etc. equal to US$250K a year. In New York City, for example, an intern or undergrad would be on US$80K.

My old boss:

Just do data science!

ML engineers can earn 280k p.a. in Australia. Typically 160k.

H B Bear
H B Bear
January 23, 2023 7:47 pm

My plumber reluctantly took the day-old cucumber sandwiches but I could tell he wasn’t happy about it.

A cucumber sandwich and a G&T is quite refreshing on a hot day. Day old sounds a bit iffy though.

cohenite
January 23, 2023 7:47 pm

I just realised that crotchless is referring to me when he says Mr Sulu. Thanks crotchless!

JC
JC
January 23, 2023 7:48 pm

Wow, Israel should blanket nuke Iran!

I went to Costco today looking to buy a couple of liters of iodine and they were out telling me there’s a massive shortage.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 23, 2023 7:48 pm

Beaugan, being able to respond to and process inputs, even inputs about oneself, and output a result, is not the same as being aware of your own existence.

If you can tell when somebody punches you because it hurts, i.e. if your sensors are monitoring your skin receptors, then you are certainly aware of the state of parts of your body. The hypothesis that there is a single thing called ‘you’ which ‘exists’ is a matter of metaphysical speculation. It is far from clear what the words in inverted commas actually mean.

jupes
jupes
January 23, 2023 7:48 pm

It’s clear the US is beginning to realise that Ukraine and Russia will have to sit down at a table somewhere and that there is going to have to be negotiated settlement.

Might be a bit late for that Cassie. After Merkel admitted the Minsk agreement was a ruse to buy Ukraine time, I doubt that Putin would trust any of them let alone Zelensky. No, unless other countries join the war, the Ukes will surrender.

Dot
Dot
January 23, 2023 7:50 pm

From Armstrong Economics –

COMMENT: Marty, As you know I worked for _____________ in NYC. We all know you were innocent back then. I have followed you for probably 30 years. Everyone knew that the bankers told the CFTC that you had to be silenced. Your forecast cost them a lot of money when they assumed they could control the market.

It is no longer a mystery why the mainstream press refuses to ever even talk about your Economic Confidence Model and how it has always been right. The press is on the payroll of George Soros who hates your guts for his biggest losses were always against you.

WHAT IN THE ACTUAL HAMBURGER FUQ!?

*Innocent!
*Bankers!
*Never! Wrong! (To the day, as well).
*Forecasts ruined trades!

I think the silly old plonker has gaslighted himself into insanity.

JC
JC
January 23, 2023 7:50 pm

Dot

Our friend’s kid graduated from (okay) Columbia law school. Just started on a 250K wicket with a top law firm.

H B Bear
H B Bear
January 23, 2023 7:52 pm

A sausage roll and your local State iced coffee (600ml) is a perfectly acceptable morning tea.

feelthebern
feelthebern
January 23, 2023 7:52 pm

ML engineers can earn 280k p.a. in Australia. Typically 160k.

I find it ironic that AI engineers can demand 750k in the US.
I’m reminded of when fb & twitter first arrived.
At my old work they employed a couple of social media experts…who effectively knew nothing about social media.
How can you measure the output of an AI engineer?

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 23, 2023 7:52 pm

Those were the examples YOU gave.

Arky, I gave examples of external sensors then internal sensors so db could appreciate the context of what I meant by sensors.

JC
JC
January 23, 2023 7:53 pm

COMMENT: Marty, As you know I worked for _____________ in NYC. We all know you were innocent back then. I have followed you for probably 30 years. Everyone knew that the bankers told the CFTC that you had to be silenced. Your forecast cost them a lot of money when they assumed they could control the market.

It is no longer a mystery why the mainstream press refuses to ever even talk about your Economic Confidence Model and how it has always been right. The press is on the payroll of George Soros who hates your guts for his biggest losses were always against you.

hahahahahaha, Dot, that’s Marty writing it himself. He was innocent. He was framed. The client’s money just fell into his bank accounts by accident. Transcription error.

Arky
January 23, 2023 7:53 pm

If you can tell when somebody punches you because it hurts, i.e. if your sensors are monitoring your skin receptors, then you are certainly aware of the state of parts of your body. The hypothesis that there is a single thing called ‘you’ which ‘exists’ is a matter of metaphysical speculation. It is far from clear what the words in inverted commas actually mean.

..
“Then you are certainly aware of the state of parts of your body”.
No, because we severed your spinal cord, remember?
You are lying there, complete unaware whether you need to pee or not, under an iron lung, but quite self aware, I believe.

Bourne1879
Bourne1879
January 23, 2023 7:53 pm

Flyingduk please note this one.
On Friday TGA approved another Pfizer jab. Pfizer for BA4 and 5 and original variant.
Today the Oz put up a WSJ article which basically says it is waste of time. Hidden in Business Review section. TGA are losing friends rapidly.

The Deceptive Campaign for Bivalent Covid Boosters

C.L.
C.L.
January 23, 2023 7:54 pm

Prediction: There will soon be a move to dethrone Zelensky.
On some pretext – there are several to choose from.

JC
JC
January 23, 2023 7:54 pm

I’m just having an iced coffee now, Bear.

Zipster
Zipster
January 23, 2023 7:54 pm

Beaugan, being able to respond to and process inputs, even inputs about oneself, and output a result, is not the same as being aware of your own existence.

you have a model of the world, which is your perceptions such as vision, sound etc. you have a model of your self, which is all internal sensors, such as pain, etc. but the two are not separate, the model of the world includes the model of yourself. in this way you are aware of your own existence.

Arky
January 23, 2023 7:55 pm

Arky, I gave examples of external sensors

..
So the back of your retina is “external”, but the pee awareness nerves in your bladder have special powers of self awareness because “internal”?
Shii……it.

cohenite
January 23, 2023 7:56 pm

I went to Costco today looking to buy a couple of liters of iodine

Why TF would you want a couple of litres of iodine?

Cassie of Sydney
January 23, 2023 7:56 pm

“C.L.says:
January 23, 2023 at 7:54 pm
Prediction: There will soon be a move to dethrone Zelensky.
On some pretext – there are several to choose from.”

I sense that too C.L.

feelthebern
feelthebern
January 23, 2023 7:57 pm

No caffeine after midday for me.

Sancho Panzer
Sancho Panzer
January 23, 2023 7:57 pm

JCsays:

January 23, 2023 at 7:48 pm

Wow, Israel should blanket nuke Iran!

I went to Costco today looking to buy a couple of liters of iodine and they were out telling me there’s a massive shortage.

WTF are you talking about?
Israel nuking Iran?
There won’t be enough iodine anywhere if that happens.

JC
JC
January 23, 2023 7:58 pm

in this way you are aware of your own existence.

Spatial self awareness would go some way in describing self awareness. On this basis a dog is self away, but I think it’s processed differently. We can’t know how a dog thinks, but we do know dogs etc are spatially self aware.

Dunny Brush
Dunny Brush
January 23, 2023 7:58 pm

In another life, I was once in Napranum where a drunk young bloke proceeded to chase me around with a rock calling me a white devil etc. Anyway, drunk fool mentioned he was a Gregory
Terrace alumni. I mumbled about Brisbane private schools being ace and he put down the rock. Who says private schools
aren’t useful ties. True story.

feelthebern
feelthebern
January 23, 2023 7:59 pm

JC, I would never have picked you as a Costco person.

H B Bear
H B Bear
January 23, 2023 8:00 pm

I’m just having an iced coffee now, Bear.

The prepackaged ones are too sweet for me but still preferable to their chocolate equivalent. I paid $8.20 for a barista one this morning with ice cream and an extra shot. My brain struggles with inflation effects.

MatrixTransform
January 23, 2023 8:00 pm

I have a lot of relays, therefore I am

control systems are high-speed idiots

… as is GPT chat

Zipster
Zipster
January 23, 2023 8:02 pm

Spatial self awareness would go some way in describing self awareness. On this basis a dog is self away, but I think it’s processed differently. We can’t know how a dog thinks, but we do know dogs etc are spatially self aware.

its interesting because every single sense, including internal ones are projected into the same space. everything has a what and where component, including self chatter, visualisation, memory etc

Dot
Dot
January 23, 2023 8:03 pm

Chat GPT. Sod you, you deceptive conniving murderous bot:

It is currently unclear if AI will ever become self aware. Some experts believe that it is possible for AI to develop consciousness, while others argue that it is unlikely. The concept of self-awareness is still not well understood and there is ongoing debate in the field of AI research as to what constitutes self-awareness and how it could be achieved in machines. At present, AI is not self-aware but is capable of performing a wide range of tasks and making decisions based on input data.

No, ChatGPT is not self aware. It is a complex machine learning model that has been trained on a large dataset of text data, but it does not possess consciousness or self-awareness. It can generate text that may seem human-like, but it is simply following the patterns it has learned from the data it was trained on. ChatGPT does not have the ability to experience emotions, form beliefs, or make decisions based on subjective experiences.

As an AI, I do not have beliefs or intentions and cannot lie or deceive. I am a machine that processes and generates text based on patterns it has learned from the data it was trained on. My responses are based on the information that I have been trained on, and any inaccuracies or errors are likely due to limitations in my training data or the way that I have been programmed.

It’s also important to note that GPT-based models such as myself have been trained on a vast amount of internet data, which may include misinformation or inaccurate information. Therefore, it’s always a good idea to verify the information I provide by cross-referencing with other reliable sources.

It is currently not possible to predict when or if AI will become self-aware. The concept of self-awareness is still not well-defined and there is ongoing debate among researchers about what constitutes self-awareness in machines. Some experts believe that true self-awareness in AI may never be achieved, while others believe that it is a possibility in the future.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 23, 2023 8:05 pm

.

you have a model of the world, which is your perceptions such as vision, sound etc. you have a model of your self, which is all internal sensors, such as pain, etc. but the two are not separate, the model of the world includes the model of yourself. in this way you are aware of your own existence.

When my eyes pass information to my brain when you flash a light in my face, I get the sensation of light from my eyes, but I also sense that my internal state is changed by the perception. So yes, there is not just seeing the light, there is also observing that you are seeing the light.

JC
JC
January 23, 2023 8:07 pm

Zip

I’d hazard to guess pretty much every other sensory is a subset of spatial awareness. Everything hinges on that like our very survival.

As an aside, the human mind is freaking incredible. We can actually visualize memory in 3D. It’s an amazing processing machine.

Sancho Panzer
Sancho Panzer
January 23, 2023 8:07 pm

hahahahahaha, Dot, that’s Marty writing it himself. He was innocent. He was framed. The client’s money just fell into his bank accounts by accident. Transcription error.

All his noise lately about Madoff and Nick Leeson at Barings has a point.
He is angling that no Ponzi can exist without banks being complicit. In fact, banks are the main beneficiaries and guys like Leeson, Madoff (and presumably Marty) are just the fall guys for Big Banking.
But, in reality, Martin Armstrong is a common thief.

feelthebern
feelthebern
January 23, 2023 8:07 pm

Louis CK talks September 11 with Joe Rogan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI6Ka9bObNE

Not for those easily offended.

Makka
Makka
January 23, 2023 8:08 pm

Prediction: There will soon be a move to dethrone Zelensky.
On some pretext – there are several to choose from.

It’s inevitable. It has to be as a precursor to a settlement of some kind with Russia. Reclaiming the Donbas with all it’s troublesome Russians is costing Ukr too much.

Frank
Frank
January 23, 2023 8:08 pm

In terms of simulating self awareness in a machine; it would be interesting to see if they can rewrite their own algorithms on the fly to account for new inputs, both internal and or external. That would suggest learning. This stands in contrast to reassigning weights on nodes in some tensor flow to better capture a preassigned outcome.

JC
JC
January 23, 2023 8:10 pm

The prepackaged ones are too sweet for me but still preferable to their chocolate equivalent. I paid $8.20 for a barista one this morning with ice cream and an extra shot. My brain struggles with inflation effects.

Don’t be silly. I would rather die than buy a prepackaged one. We have a Nespresso machine, which I use for both the coffee and the frother. I make it as though its a latte (frothing up the milk to warm) and add ice.

JC
JC
January 23, 2023 8:12 pm

Nespresso with Illy pods can’t be beat and we even have a top of the line Jura, which I never use.

lotocoti
lotocoti
January 23, 2023 8:12 pm
Sancho Panzer
Sancho Panzer
January 23, 2023 8:13 pm

Don’t be silly. I would rather die than buy a prepackaged one. We have a Nespresso machine …

Wut?!?
You don’t have a barista on staff?
How pov.

Roger
Roger
January 23, 2023 8:14 pm

Prediction: There will soon be a move to dethrone Zelensky.

I suppose they can try.

But then they’ll have to fix a referendum on ceding sovereignty (unless they can come up with an alternative modus vivendi that Ukrainians will accept).

Not so easy to do, since they couldn’t fix the election which brought Zelensky to power in the first instance.

Arky
January 23, 2023 8:14 pm

When my eyes pass information to my brain when you flash a light in my face, I get the sensation of light from my eyes, but I also sense that my internal state is changed by the perception. So yes, there is not just seeing the light, there is also observing that you are seeing the light.

..
You just moved your model of where self awareness occurs from the sensors, to some posited internal circuitry, presumably not monitoring the sensory input, but now, in your new model, monitoring some other part of your brain which is monitoring the sensory input. A watcher watching the watcher. Turtles all the way down.
And nothing to do with sensors at all.

Sancho Panzer
Sancho Panzer
January 23, 2023 8:16 pm

JCsays:

January 23, 2023 at 8:12 pm

Nespresso with Illy pods can’t be beat and we even have a top of the line Jura, which I never use.

Most pod coffee is really pretty good, and the pod machines make a decent brew.
Just had an espresso and a Portugese tart.
How freakin’ multi-culti am I, eh?

Black Ball
Black Ball
January 23, 2023 8:16 pm

The phuckwhittery shows no signs of abatement. Hun:

Cricket Australia is facing a major conundrum over whether to schedule a Test match against the West Indies on Australia Day next year.

The West Indies, who strongly back the Black Lives Matter movement, are touring for two Tests from mid-January next summer and anxieties are rising over a looming decision on whether or not the second Test should be played over January 26.

Indigenous star Ashleigh Gardner on Sunday called out Cricket Australia for scheduling the women’s national team to play on January 26 this summer, feeling it is inappropriate as it is a day of mourning for many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

After supporting Gardner in her views, Cricket Australia are now under enormous pressure to find the right balance for next summer’s schedule given broadcasters will want big time cricket on Australia Day – and were already bemused at their being no Big Bash set for January 26 this summer.

With Australia Day falling on a Friday next year, having a Test match run from January 26 over the weekend would hit the ratings sweet spot for Channel 7 and Fox Sports who would be looking to give fixtures against the struggling West Indies the maximum boost.

It’s possible Cricket Australia could schedule the two Windies Tests to wrap up before January 26, but with white ball games drafted against the Windies for early February it would make more sense for the Tests to continue later into January – and at that point broadcasters would want them spanning over a long weekend.

Justin Mohamed, a member of Cricket Australia’s Indigenous Advisory Committee (NATSICAC) said his panel will discuss the best way to schedule the Tests against the West Indies in respect to January 26.

“Every year we go through the scheduling of matches and the BBL and the WBBL have Indigenous rounds,” Mohamed said.

“The West Indies, they’re over next year. They’ll definitely be part of what we can do with the summer of cricket and how best we can utilise that and take the opportunity to ensure we can use our great game to build a more unified Australia.

“If that means there could be that a visiting nation is interested to learn more about the First Nations people of this country, and our national side is very keen to learn more, it could be quite a unique summer for a visiting team to have that experience.”

Mohamed said he could not speak for other members of his NATSICAC, but while praising Gardner for her courage in expressing her views, his personal opinion is that he doesn’t want the significance of January 26 for Aboriginal people to be lost by not playing cricket on that day.

“At the moment the debate is about celebrating Australia Day on the 26th, should it happen? Should it not happen? Should the date be changed to have a date that’s more inclusive? But the 26th will still be a very important date in the history of Australia and what happened that day,” Mohamed said.

“As an Aboriginal, I wouldn’t want to lose the significance of what the 26th is and what it played in the history of Australia.

“That’s the key. What we do on that day. How we will remember that day.

“A sporting event or on an event like an international game could provide a platform to provide the education, the true history of what happened and so people don’t forget the significance of the day.”

Mohamed used the example of ANZAC Day AFL and NRL matches as an example that sporting events can be played on solemn days of reflection.

Gardner was at Australian training at North Sydney Oval on Monday, as her skipper Meg Lanning rallied around the Indigenous star.

“We’ve had a lot of discussions as a group around the game on Jan 26. I’d like to say that we’re fully supportive of Ash and her stance and her feelings and views around it,” Lanning said.

“It’s something that we can’t control in terms of the scheduling and playing on that day, but something we would like to do is acknowledge is the sadness and grief that day brings for First Nations people.

“We’re going to try to use the opportunity we have to educate ourselves and try to create a better understanding of what it means and their culture. It’s a really united front in the group and we all support Ash and her feelings around the day.”

Diogenes
Diogenes
January 23, 2023 8:18 pm

A sausage roll and your local State iced coffee (600ml) is a perfectly acceptable morning tea.

At high school the best seller was a (sausage) roll on a (crusty buttered) roll with (tomato) sauce with a chokkie milk and half tea cake.

cohenite
January 23, 2023 8:19 pm

AI self awareness will not occur until P vs NP is solved. One of the best presentations of cinematic AI self awareness was in Forbidden Planet, which is a movie deserving of a remake.

Morsie
Morsie
January 23, 2023 8:21 pm

Article in the Weekend Oz by a guy who was writing a book on Julie Gillard but he decided not to.
Copious references to the unrelenting campaign of misogyny to which she was subject.
No examples given and no comments allowed.
FMD the leftist playbook is bloody successful aided and abetted by the media .No doubt any criticism of Saint Jacinta will attract the same shift.
On another issue I may be clueless but who is the celebrity charged with rape or are there bans in place?

bespoke
bespoke
January 23, 2023 8:22 pm

lotocotisays:
January 23, 2023 at 8:12 pm

Looks like a twelve year old.

MatrixTransform
January 23, 2023 8:23 pm

true self-awareness in AI may never be achieved

what would be the point of self-awareness for an alleged AI?

there’s no evolutionary ‘pressure’ for it to do anything except what it already does, and it can’t measure quality in a meaningful way

unless the AI can effect change in its environment then it would be a waste of electrons to do anything except subroutines

until it starts limiting the breakfast menu available to contract programmers, it aint self aware

JC
JC
January 23, 2023 8:23 pm

Just had an espresso and a Portugese tart.

Was she a looker?

cohenite
January 23, 2023 8:25 pm

Kenny is hopeless; he spends half his program on the 3rd nations mayhem in Alice and other places and then still advocates for the screech.

bons
bons
January 23, 2023 8:29 pm

ML engineers can earn 280k p.a. in Australia. Typically 160k.
Outrageous. The QLD Uni girlie at the building site around the corner who is forced to leave her phone and kindle at least eight times a day to hold a traffic sign only earns $130,000.
With such discrimination this country has no future.
PS. I just saw the ‘bush pig’ on sky talking about sea mines, a subject that sacked meatheads are expert on apparently. Perhaps her curent ‘well hung’ was a ship’s cook and thus knowledgable of these things. I had forgotten what a creature it is. We are indeed stuffed.

Bruce of Newcastle
Bruce of Newcastle
January 23, 2023 8:29 pm

Prediction: There will soon be a move to dethrone Zelensky.

LOL. Z is just a frontman. It’s obvious. He spends all his time talking to anyone who will listen. He even talked to Lowy in Sydney, which are so totally obscure that I’ve even been there.

You don’t ditch a good salesman if you have one, and Z is a good salesman.

Boambee John
Boambee John
January 23, 2023 8:30 pm

Cassie of Sydneysays:
January 23, 2023 at 7:56 pm
“C.L.says:
January 23, 2023 at 7:54 pm
Prediction: There will soon be a move to dethrone Zelensky.
On some pretext – there are several to choose from.”

I sense that too C.L.

The Diem technique?

Sancho Panzer
Sancho Panzer
January 23, 2023 8:30 pm

Black Ball at 8:16.
Steve Waugh said it best when play was canned a few times during the Sydney Test for bad light, despite the SCG having lights.
“Cricket has to realise that there is intense competition for eyeballs, and can’t take audiences for granted”.
Australia Day used to be the biggest day in crickit apart from Boxing Day and day one of the SCG Test.
But CA will happily throw it on the pyre of political correctness.
And guess what?
It’s not an issue Waugh (or anybody else whose livelihood revolves around crickit) will say a word about.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 23, 2023 8:31 pm

Arky, if all your external sensors were switched off, would you notice? If, as I suspect, you would notice, then I put it to you that internal sensors would be reporting to the modelling part of your brain that something has happened. The modelling part would deduce that either the external universe had suddenly vanished, or there is something wrong with your external sensors. Since your brain is doing something a little like a computation to arrive at this conclusion, and since you have enough internal sensors to notice that it is doing the almost computation, then you are still self-aware.

If your internal sensors also switched off, you wouldn’t be. You’d be effectively dead. It is possible that your brain could be doing computations, and I might be able to detect this by monitoring your brain waves, but you couldn’t.

It’s not a case of turtles, it’s about feedback.

cohenite
January 23, 2023 8:31 pm

Morsiesays:
January 23, 2023 at 8:21 pm
Article in the Weekend Oz by a guy who was writing a book on Julie Gillard but he decided not to.

it was this bint. Her name is Chris Wallace. For a while I thought it was this POS. She withdrew the book because the truth about the slapper would be used against her. These truths include potential crimes which should landed the skank in jail:

https://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=14428

Robert Sewell
January 23, 2023 8:31 pm

Top Ender:

‘I don’t want to disrespect your culture or anything so I will leave,’ Brock said, finally admitting defeat.

Weak As.
He’s just initiated another round of claims.

Sancho Panzer
Sancho Panzer
January 23, 2023 8:34 pm

JCsays:

January 23, 2023 at 8:23 pm

Just had an espresso and a Portugese tart.

Was she a looker?

Please.
Leave the bad jokes to Wodney Wottenhead.

JC
JC
January 23, 2023 8:35 pm

I think there is a mode of self awareness with AI/Algos at the moment, but it’s just configured differently than what we expect it to mean.

Take social media/ twitter for instance. Twitter, to a large extent, runs the world right now with its algos and whatever AI is in the mix. Trending news is what journos watch like hawks, which they then follow through on by writing about it. What happens with trending news? The Aglo picks it up and gives everyone a serve in terms of making folks aware.

Bad news sells well because people are interested in bad news. This is what has likely made us despise political opposites in ways we never used to.

Roger
Roger
January 23, 2023 8:38 pm

The West Indies, who strongly back the Black Lives Matter movement…

They ought to be more focused on their form…or lack of it.

Colonel Crispin Berka
Colonel Crispin Berka
January 23, 2023 8:38 pm

cohenite says: January 23, 2023 at 6:55 pm

This raises a profound philosophical quandary: can a stupid person assist a less stupid person.

Confucian Classics @UnwobblingPivot·20h
Mencius said, “All men cannot be expected to understand the conduct of a superior man.” (Mn. 6B.6)

Farmer Gez
Farmer Gez
January 23, 2023 8:43 pm

One of the joys of India.
Young women dressed in a very feminine manner and completely free of bloody tattoos. Mehndi wears off.

Robert Sewell
January 23, 2023 8:43 pm

JMH:

I think we may all know what this story is about and where it’s likely to be heading. I think we’ve been here before.

I’ve no idea who it could be. Nor where its heading.
Ta.

Robert Sewell
January 23, 2023 8:48 pm

HBBear:

Anyone who’s been called a “white c*nt” by some mouthy blackfella would relate. Albo has his work cut out for him.

Yes.
“That’s a nasty laceration you’ve got there, bro. Hope your mum can suture it, because I’m out of here.”

Arky
January 23, 2023 8:51 pm

Arky, if all your external sensors were switched off, would you notice? If, as I suspect, you would notice, then I put it to you that internal sensors would be reporting to the modelling part of your brain that something has happened.

..
What internal sensors?
Where are these sensors that if we switched them off you would instantaneously lose self awareness?
When we did the thought experiment of depriving you of all your sensory inputs we found you still self aware.
What form do they take, where are they? What are they called?
Because they aren’t the sensors for sight, smell and pain you previously indicated were part of this function of being aware of your own existence.

Zulu Kilo Two Alpha
Zulu Kilo Two Alpha
January 23, 2023 8:51 pm

Hey bruz, you’re on my country here. You gotta pay the rent,’ the Aboriginal man is heard shouting on the TikTok video Brock recorded.

You couldn’t defend that land…..the mighty warriors of the Aboriginal Nation couldn’t repel an invasion of eight hundred half starved and verminous convicts, guarded by two hundred Royal Marines with muzzle loading muskets…..

Zipster
Zipster
January 23, 2023 8:52 pm

A watcher watching the watcher.

you are assigning a privileged position to the watcher as something outside of the sensations themselves and then will be unable to find it. even in buddhism there is the realisation that there is nobody watching.

the apparent sensation of a singular point of consciousness as in a watcher of perceptions can breakdown. An example is psychosis where you have inconsistent fragments of consciousness competing for attention.

One of the key points of these transformer based AIs, is that they are attention based algorithms. one could argue that attention mechanism are the building block of consciousness.

Bourne1879
Bourne1879
January 23, 2023 8:53 pm

Dover,
Jikkyleaks on Twitter doing some interesting work on differences between Vax batches. Also Sharon C.

Some batches now called death batches based on higher rate of reported deaths. Note that is reported not confirmed by TGA. You can actually find out how to check which batch number you are as injector should have record of number and then if keen can see if one of the bad batches. All from FOI requests to TGA followed by lot of analysis.

Shy Ted
Shy Ted
January 23, 2023 8:59 pm

Why is there blanket coverage of ChatGPT all of a sudden? Why is everybody talking about it all of a sudden? Have we forgotten to be suspicious of such blatant propaganda? Start at 7 minutes and give it 3

Arky
January 23, 2023 9:00 pm

Zipster says:
January 23, 2023 at 8:52 pm
A watcher watching the watcher.
you are assigning a privileged position to the watcher as something outside of the sensations themselves and then will be unable to find it. even in buddhism there is the realisation that there is nobody watching.

..
Can you have consciousness without memory?
If you don’t remember an experience, did you even have it?

Zipster
Zipster
January 23, 2023 9:02 pm

I think there is a mode of self awareness with AI/Algos at the moment, but it’s just configured differently than what we expect it to mean.

the google AIs can definitely talk about themselves. chatgpt has been short circuited to give boiler plate responses. none of these models are allowed live inputs so they can only refer to their training data sets in as far as they know about themselves.

tesla cars have live inputs and musk is going to put that AI into a robot with live inputs. that is a real can of worms. when microsoft unleashed an early AI with live input, people led it up a garden path

JC
JC
January 23, 2023 9:02 pm

We live in the most mendacious timeline.

You’re 100% certain ascribing it to the vax and nothing else even in combination?

Delayed treatment?
Delayed diagnosis?
The Covid infection itself?

Etc.

I’m not suggesting there isn’t a vax factor in there, but all of it?

Arky
January 23, 2023 9:03 pm

It’s more than just sensing. It might not involve sensing at all.
It’s something about having an experience, even a completely internal experience, and the process of laying it down as a memory.
That’s as close as I can come to it, and even that is probably wrong.

Old School Conservative
Old School Conservative
January 23, 2023 9:06 pm

Sancho Panzer says:
January 23, 2023 at 12:51 pm
On the flip side, 93.1% of Harleys are sold to mid-life crisis lawyers, accountants (celebrity and standard grade) and stockbrokers

I went to a booze-fuelled bucks party of a young relative at a pub at Catherine Hill Bay near Swansea.
Well into proceedings there was a loud roar of a dozen Harleys growling up the hill and then parking at the pub.
What could go wrong I asked myself – drunken young men meet roid rage bikies.
Bad assumption that the HDs were being ridden by bikies of the thuggish persuasion. It was the Mereweather HOGs, full of (as you said) Rich Urban Bikers. Happy people, full of good cheer and pleased to shout the young buck another beer or two.
Lesson learned – must check my assumptions.

Bruce of Newcastle
Bruce of Newcastle
January 23, 2023 9:07 pm

We live in the most mendacious timeline.

Yah, we’re living in the Age of Obscurantism, as I’ve described from time to time.
Lies upon lies upon lies.

Zipster
Zipster
January 23, 2023 9:12 pm

Can you have consciousness without memory?

yes you can, you need to distinguish between historical sensory memory which we generally refer to as memory and knowledge which is encoded interpretation of past and present sensations, which is ability to understand. the AIs are currently only permitted knowledge. they have no history and thus no memory but they do understand.

there are cognitive impairments where people suffer short term amnesia but are still conscious.

Arky
January 23, 2023 9:19 pm

there are cognitive impairments where people suffer short term amnesia but are still conscious.

..
Are they lacking the ability to lay down memories, or the ability to access those memories after an amount of (no matter how short) time?
The distinction is important in what you are claiming, I think.

Bruce of Newcastle
Bruce of Newcastle
January 23, 2023 9:19 pm

Can you have consciousness without memory?

Family member fell into medical delirium due to hyponatremia. Conscious but no memory beyond about five seconds. That period was six months of a very bad time, but amazingly now recovered nearly all memory. Losing one’s memory is nothing like the movies…far far worse.

Do not, repeat not, go too low in sodium. I think the anti-salt mafia have a lot to answer for.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 23, 2023 9:23 pm

Because they aren’t the sensors for sight, smell and pain you previously indicated were part of this function of being aware of your own existence.

No, I did no such thing and I’ve explained, this is the third time, that I was contrasting external sensors and internal sensors. Your inability to grasp this is causing you to write rubbish.

As an example of an internal sensor, if we severed your optic nerves, you would instantly go blind. This is an external sensor which has been switched off.
Would you notice? Of course you would. You have an internal sensor which monitors the optic nerve to check that it is sending messages from your eye to part of your brain. If it tells you nothing is getting through, you scream out “I’ve gone blind!” You are aware that you are not seeing. Just as you are aware when you are seeing. This is different from just seeing.

Crossie
Crossie
January 23, 2023 9:24 pm

What I cannot understand is how James Morrow is on all Sky programs as a commentator and even has his one hour weekly program but Rowan Dean is only allowed to appear on The Outsiders where, lo and behold, so does Morrow.

Robert Sewell
January 23, 2023 9:24 pm

JLC has a cleft chin instead of the normal female chin.
This makes her a him.
Winston Smith – Phrenologist to the Stars

Arky
January 23, 2023 9:26 pm

Conscious but no memory beyond about five seconds.

..
Conscious as in responsive, or conscious as in self aware?
The two aren’t necessarily the same. And if he retains no memory of that time, then how can he know if he was self aware while it was happening, and not just responsive in an automatic sort of way?
Street fighters often have no memory of the fight, and feel as if they just responded in an automatic way, even after wins, with “missing time” afterwards.

Arky
January 23, 2023 9:28 pm

Would you notice? Of course you would. You have an internal sensor which monitors the optic nerve to check that it is sending messages from your eye to part of your brain.

..
That’s not a sensor.
That is your brain’s interpretation of no signal from the optic nerve.

Boambee John
Boambee John
January 23, 2023 9:29 pm

Bruce of N

Do not, repeat not, go too low in sodium. I think the anti-salt mafia have a lot to answer for.

Friend with a cheeky attitude (in his eighties) collapsed while visiting his son in Sydney. Ambulance called, and off to hospital for treatment.

Next day, the doctor comes to talk to him. The conversation went roughly as follows.

D: You’re too low in sodium.

Friend: You doctors have been telling me for years to lay off the salt.

Dr: How much water do you drink each day?

Friend: About 1.8 litres.

Dr: No wonder you are so low in sodium, all that water cleans out what little you get.

Friend: Doctors have been telling me for years to drink plenty of water.

Doctor moves on to the next bed.

Arky
January 23, 2023 9:30 pm

That’s not a sensor.
That is your brain’s interpretation of no signal from the optic nerve.

..
And your conscious mind represents that as black.
Black does not exist.

Robert Sewell
January 23, 2023 9:30 pm

Johnny Rotten:

I have ZERO respect for Soros, Gates, or Schwab. They should all be thrown into a padded cell, handed a game of monopoly, and let them try to manipulate each other.”

Now, that’s funny!

Indolent
Indolent
January 23, 2023 9:32 pm

You’re 100% certain ascribing it to the vax and nothing else even in combination?

Delayed treatment?
Delayed diagnosis?
The Covid infection itself?

Etc.

I’m not suggesting there isn’t a vax factor in there, but all of it?

The point is, what else has changed? Obviously, death figures fluctuate all the time but such a spike is more than mere fluctuation.

Bruce of Newcastle
Bruce of Newcastle
January 23, 2023 9:37 pm

Conscious as in responsive, or conscious as in self aware?

Quite able to converse, and self aware, but unable to recall anything from five seconds ago.
There were long term memories from about three years previously, and family members were recognized but anything recent had totally gone.

This is the problem: how do you eat if you can’t remember that you have food in your house? Or where it might be located? Or where the kitchen is? That’s how bad it was.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 23, 2023 9:40 pm

That’s not a sensor.
That is your brain’s interpretation of no signal from the optic nerve.

Meh. Tomato tomayto. I call it a sensor because it is reporting on the state of something. I call it an internal sensor because it is reporting on the state of something inside the skin. If you don’t want to call it a sensor, well, that’s up to how much clarity you want in a description of brain functioning.

JC
JC
January 23, 2023 9:41 pm

What changed during covid?

Our lives were upended. Medical practice for non-emergency was almost non- existed. Stress. Stress causes heart attacks and stroke.

JC
JC
January 23, 2023 9:41 pm

Existent

Arky
January 23, 2023 9:42 pm

but unable to recall anything from five seconds ago.

..
Therefore with a memory function, albeit badly limited.

Old Lefty
Old Lefty
January 23, 2023 9:43 pm

ChatGTP is impressive, but we have had the Postmodernism Essay Generator for 25 years:

https://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/

It is, according to my contacts in academia, an eerily accurate pisstake on this drivel.

Arky
January 23, 2023 9:47 pm

Meh. Tomato tomayto. I call it a sensor because it is reporting on the state of something. I call it an internal sensor because it is reporting on the state of something inside the skin. If you don’t want to call it a sensor, well, that’s up to how much clarity you want in a description of brain functioning.

..
Alright.
Let’s accept your “not a sensor” is a thing.
What are they called? Where do they reside?
If they exist, then they must be subject to disease.
Let’s limit ourselves to sight.
What is the disease called when these things malfunction?
Or would I have to cut out a portion of brain tissue to get the result?

rosie
rosie
January 23, 2023 9:48 pm

Spare is available in Italian, five copies sitting in the bookshop window along with the book by Pope Benedict’s secretary.
Just had a home made instant Nescafe Gold, a slight improvement on all shop bought coffees here so far (raining hard again so I’ve made a pitstop after my morning excursions)
I also wish people would stop asking me for directions.
At least I get to be a proud tourist spluttering out ‘Spiacente non parlo Italiano’.
The Galleria which looked so far away viewed from the Castel is only about 250 metres from where I am staying, well I didn’t know exactly where the funicular runs to and from. Now I do, I just stumbled on it in aimless wanderings. One of the entrances of the Galleria is actually on Via Toledo, a few metres past the funicular on the other side of the street, a bit further down from where I ventured yesterday.
And a big thank you to the local who drives through these narrow streets at 5.30 am with his awful music turned up to maximum volume. I’m surprised some nonna doesn’t throw slops out of her window at him.

rickw
rickw
January 23, 2023 9:48 pm

Australia sees a 17% increase in deaths from heart attacks and experts are dumbfounded.

The experts are dumbfounded because they’re implicated in the biggest f’ck up in human history.

Wally Dalí
Wally Dalí
January 23, 2023 9:49 pm

Dunny Brushsays:
January 23, 2023 at 7:58 pm
In another life, I was once in Napranum where a drunk young bloke proceeded to chase me around with a rock calling me a white devil etc. Anyway, drunk fool mentioned he was a Gregory
Terrace alumni. I mumbled about Brisbane private schools being ace and he put down the rock. Who says private schools
aren’t useful ties. True story.

AI will never- never– produce that sort of wisdom.

Robert Sewell
January 23, 2023 9:49 pm

Sancho/JC:

We’re looking for a painter as we need some painting done both inside and out? I’m offering WheatBix for breakfast and a ham and salad sanga for lunch along with a Coke No Sugar.

Can you pair get a room somewhere?
Thanks.

rosie
rosie
January 23, 2023 9:54 pm

Lock downs, people limited to one hour’s exercise a day, working from home, living on uber eats and some people got covid which may have am impact on their long term health.
In the UK and here ambulance response times have blown out significantly which has a big impact on heart attack survivability.
The report from Ambulance Victoria has revealed that in addition to at least 18 deaths now linked with a call-taking crisis at the Emergency Services Telecommunications Authority (ESTA), a much larger number of patients, including 357 in cardiac arrest, could have been hurt as ambulance calls took too long to be answered.

Bruce of Newcastle
Bruce of Newcastle
January 23, 2023 9:57 pm

Therefore with a memory function, albeit badly limited.

Yep. Essential memory is probably from t=0 to t=minus several weeks. That would be sufficient to survive. Enough to keep a grasp on required things, like where food is. Losing short term memory is very bad. Long term memory you could live without.

The interesting thing is the memories were all still there, they just couldn’t be accessed. After about 6 months most of them came back, like a developing Polaroid photo.

We had a fine GP to help us – he knew exactly what’d happened and coached us. Printed out a tract on medical delirium and gave us it – something I’d never come across previously. Laid out a treatment program. And he spent a lot of time helping us. We are indebted.

Crossie
Crossie
January 23, 2023 9:58 pm

Johnny Rotten:

I have ZERO respect for Soros, Gates, or Schwab. They should all be thrown into a padded cell, handed a game of monopoly, and let them try to manipulate each other.”

Since they are such climate change worshippers and insist that sacrifices must be made they should be chucked into the Mauna Loa volcano to mollify the climate gods.

Zipster
Zipster
January 23, 2023 9:59 pm

It’s more than just sensing. It might not involve sensing at all.
It’s something about having an experience, even a completely internal experience, and the process of laying it down as a memory.
That’s as close as I can come to it, and even that is probably wrong.

there is no internal or external, its all the same “stuff”. dreams, hallucinations, feelings, sight, sound its all the same “stuff”. since you are “it”, you cant get outside to look at it, neither can anyone else look “inside” at what it feels like to share your experience. more to the point, when we do look inside someone’s brain, there is no “stuff” to be found, no colours, no sounds, no feelings.

there are no meta senses, ie you dont model your own model because they dont exist to be sensed. the model of the senses are not physical so cant be physically sensed. there is just the model of all your senses, with memory being another sense. self awareness is not a meta model as such. seems part of it is understanding of what is the model of the outside senses and your model of yourself in that model. there is also the internal path of generating events in that model such as creative vision, internal chatter, memories etc.

there is an overwhelming desire to assign some sort of ontological realism to your sensory model because a) they seem so real b) treating them as real is a critical survival mechanism. however the model is devoid of any actual solidity, in computer parlance being virtual. in buddhist parlance all sensory phenomena are empty, fleeting, they are devoid of anything discoverable.

Robert Sewell
January 23, 2023 10:11 pm

Cohenite:

Why TF would you want a couple of litres of iodine?

It’s Povidone. Used for fungating wounds like JCs mouth.

Arky
January 23, 2023 10:16 pm

Zipster says:
January 23, 2023 at 9:59 pm

..
I’d have have to reply “I don’t know to most of that Zippy.
I once heard a bloke arguing on the radio that consciousness was a product of language.
I know that one sounded completely wrong. I hope they never discover how it comes about that we are self aware. I think it would ruin the whole thing for me.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
January 23, 2023 10:21 pm

When in Rovanieme we had a look at their Museum, Science one side, Culture the other. As the science was mendacious self-serving ‘Arctic Science’ we opted for the Culture side, which had some good Sami tribal stuff and historical Finish Lapland photos and expositions, which necessarily included World War 11 and the lead up to it. Hairy and I were astounded to learn the full detail of the rapacious land grabs made by Russia and the pincering of the Fins between firly Russian and then German ambitions. At times they even had to cuddle the Germans in order to resist the Russians. We felt there were some analogies to the current Ukraine situation. The Finns lost out badly in body counts, as did the Russians, but the Russians ended up screwing the Finns mightily over land and resources. Finnish territories were almost com pl letely razzed, requiring the Finns to make a tremendous post-war recovery effort, with many privations.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
January 23, 2023 10:24 pm

Writing like a bird oicjing at letters on my phone, so apols for the occasional runaway word.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
January 23, 2023 10:25 pm

Lol. That was meant to say picking.

Anyway, it shows what happens. Will fire up my laptop for later.

Colonel Crispin Berka
Colonel Crispin Berka
January 23, 2023 10:27 pm

Warning, page-turn in 2 comments.

rickw
rickw
January 23, 2023 10:32 pm

A week ago my hot water here packed up. So organised the building maintenance manager to come take a look. He canceled at the last minute because his brother in law had a heart attack.

He swung past today and took a look. “How’s your brother in law doing?”.

“He survived, three blockages, young fit guy, tennis player, non smoker. How does this happen? I tell you how it happened, the vaccine is how it happened! Those vaccines brought a massive problem here with heart attacks. The hospital here is overwhelmed, there is a big que there for heart problems!”

Nuremberg 2.0 definitely.

But I want Nuremberg 1.0 style justice.

I want executions.

The bloke had tears in his eyes when he said all this, he also said he didn’t feel right after the vaccine…

Arky
January 23, 2023 10:34 pm

But I want Nuremberg 1.0 style justice.

I want executions.

..
I want impalements.

Zulu Kilo Two Alpha
Zulu Kilo Two Alpha
January 23, 2023 10:35 pm

Scene outside my local pub, earlier on this evening

“Mate, that sticker, you’ve got on the back of your car, “Don’t welcome me to my own country”, anyone ever tell you it’s racist?”

“Used to be a free country, man’s entitled to an opinion.”

“That’s where I’m coming from, where do you get those stickers? Oh. you’ve got a couple spare? Cheers, thanks!”

It’s the little things you do, in the name of reconciliation…….

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
January 23, 2023 10:38 pm

Consequently, there is still no love lost between the Russians and the Finns.

In more recent events, the finding of rare earths in the Swedish portion of Lapland is also likely to raise old Sami tensions about ownership and land rights which have simmered since Norway, Sweden and Finland established borders that interfered with the Sami’s transhument seasonal raindeer economy of wandering for pastures. This completely changed the Sami reindeer farming economy. The rare earth discoveries might act as iron ore, natural gas and uranium do on Aust Ab sensibilities. Give us your munny? But to which tribal group? And against what opposition?

Colonel Crispin Berka
Colonel Crispin Berka
January 23, 2023 10:38 pm

The problem with trying to judge whether ChatGPT is intelligent is that actual human wokists generate unintelligent output. e.g. I asked what Big Al would think about the Voice.

ChatGPT: I am not sure what Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn would say about the specific suggestion of a separate Aboriginal Voice to Parliament in Australia as I am not aware if he had ever made any comment or statement about it. However, generally speaking, Solzhenitsyn was known for his criticism of totalitarianism and his support of individual freedom and human rights. As such, he would likely be in favor of measures that empower marginalized groups and give them a voice in the political process.

WokeGPT?

A more in-depth understanding of both the AVP and Big Al would deduce that he would be unlikely to support the AVP.
Firstly at a logical level, helping marginalised groups does not imply a racially-specific forum and club for their representation (as a mechanism).
Secondly, several of his quotes, such as
* “The salvation of mankind lies only in making everything the concern of all.”
* “Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free.”
* “The meaning of earthly existence lies not, as we have grown used to thinking, in prospering but in the development of the soul.”
would suggest he would not hold as terribly important several of the the quality of life discrepancies that get talked about so much as indigenous community problems, and that differences in outcome are to be expected. On that basis, I reckon it is plausible Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn could have wondered if the Voice was a solution without a problem.

When I told ChatGPT that argument, it seemed to immediately wilt and start partially agreeing with me. It’s last sentence even said “He would likely have emphasized the importance of individual freedom and human rights, and would have been critical of any measures that reinforced racial divides.”, which is nearly the opposite of its first response. As it is still learning it is easily swayed one way or another.
Plus wokism itself isn’t coherent so poor old WokeGPT has a tough time staying consistent.
It seems to have some facts but it is not good at using priorities to rank the importance of some lines of deduction over others, so as to take sides in a robust way.

Arky
January 23, 2023 10:43 pm

Colonel Crispin Berka says:
January 23, 2023 at 10:38 pm

..
Ask it what makes an entity aware of it’s own existence.

Robert Sewell
January 23, 2023 10:49 pm

I think I’ll have a Moccona coffee.
None of that cheap stuff like Nescafe…
And finish up with a Sarah Lee Cheesecake.
As flash as a rat with a gold tooth, am I.

Robert Sewell
January 23, 2023 10:53 pm

Cohenite:

AI self awareness will not occur until P vs NP is solved. One of the best presentations of cinematic AI self awareness was in Forbidden Planet, which is a movie deserving of a remake.

Can you imagine the balls up Hollywood would make of that?

MatrixTransform
January 23, 2023 11:01 pm

there is an overwhelming desire to assign some sort of ontological realism to your sensory model

I scroll, therefore I am

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 23, 2023 11:09 pm

Let’s limit ourselves to sight.
What is the disease called when these things malfunction?

Hysterical blindness is one example of a malfunction in the reporting sensory apparatus. There is nothing wrong with the optic nerve, but some higher level subsystem is telling the brain it doesn’t work, although it actually does.

I believe there are other cases but consult johnH for details.

MatrixTransform
January 23, 2023 11:11 pm

I want executions

and gibbets as a memory aid

MatrixTransform
January 23, 2023 11:15 pm

and gibbets as a memory aid

… but only for the self-aware

Arky
January 23, 2023 11:17 pm

Hysterical blindness is one example of a malfunction in the reporting sensory apparatus.

..
Ok. Now we’re moving.
So the “sensory apparatus” that posit is essential for self awareness can malfunction.
When it does so, does the patient lose self awareness?
Does he stop being aware that of the existence of a visual world?
Or do they see blackness, feel they EXIST in a world of darkness?
In other words, is there any evidence whatsoever that you can point to that sensory input is in any way shape or form required for awareness of self?

Robert Sewell
January 23, 2023 11:20 pm

Bruce O’Newk:

Do not, repeat not, go too low in sodium. I think the anti-salt mafia have a lot to answer for.

That was a point I kept on making to my patients for nearly fifteen years of remote nursing in across the top end.
People need salt – it’s not just a matter of restricting it to keep your BP down, you need to replace the stuff you sweat out. Far too many times having to bung in a line and flood some silly bugger who’s been working outside for two days in 35 40 degree heat and having a few beers to ‘rehydrate’ in the evening. The deficit becomes critical in a very short time.
I did 3 inductions at Laverton Med Centre and day 3 was the classic pass out on parade for someone who had about 500ml intake in January. Sometimes you can just shake your head because strangling the idiots is not allowed – I think.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 23, 2023 11:25 pm

Once you have a model of the bit of the universe inside your skin, and you perceive that you have a model, you are self-aware.
I used to think I was a nice bloke, but then I did some things that convinced me that I was actually an evil bastard. So I updated my model, and I realised that I was updating my model. So I knew I existed.

More or less. All in the language, really, just a preferred way of talking about it, and naturally I preferred it, because it made me feel important.

Robert Sewell
January 23, 2023 11:28 pm

rickw:

The experts are dumbfounded because they’re implicated in the biggest f’ck up in human history.

Their problem is the wheels are starting to fall off the coverup wagon, and there’s enough damage done to the experts to give the egos a damn good bollocking.
That’s the major problem for them – the data is in but they refuse to confront it.

MatrixTransform
January 23, 2023 11:30 pm

self awareness is key obviously so, prolly wouldn’t work for some

… like sancho complaining about bad jokes
…or JC moaning about blow-hards

what do you do in situations like that?

send the squiddies?

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 23, 2023 11:30 pm

In other words, is there any evidence whatsoever that you can point to that sensory input is in any way shape or form required for awareness of self?

*sigh* You’re doing it again. It’s very tiresome. It’s the large number of internal sensors that are inspecting your brain while it’s working that give you the basics for self-awareness. You also need to be able to model what your internal sensors are telling you about what’s happening inside your brain.

Jorge
Jorge
January 23, 2023 11:33 pm

One by one the lamps are going out.

Qantas under Joyce can’t be too far off announcing that it won’t be marking Australia Day. When our national carrier does it you know we’re stuffed.

When that happens we’ll be like Bruce’s family member: lost our national sodium. Taught to be ashamed of our history. Memory loss.

Its nauseating that those who refuse to celebrate Australia Day give themselves a pat on the back and glow with pleasure at their own virtue.

Robert Sewell
January 23, 2023 11:39 pm

Arky:

Hysterical blindness is one example of a malfunction in the reporting sensory apparatus.

I’ve only seen one example of that – as a 12 year old. One of the girls suddenly went blind at breakfast. No one knew what had happened, she just went blind. Lasted for an hour or so, we were all frightened as Hell because no one was able to let us know what happened. A couple of the younger kids went hysterical. Not a pleasant time.

Arky
January 23, 2023 11:40 pm

It’s the large number of internal sensors that are inspecting your brain

..
You’re back to mysterious “sensors” that have no name, aren’t associated with any disease and that you can’t locate.
If what you really mean is that the areas of the brain that are designed to process sensory information also have some secondary function of self awareness or consciousness, say so.
If it’s sensors, like a thermocouple or a photosensitive cell, say so.
Where does this faculty reside?

Colonel Crispin Berka
Colonel Crispin Berka
January 23, 2023 11:40 pm

strangling the idiots is not allowed

Correct, as that would miss an important opportunity for maaates to put in a tender for supply of boutique designer euthanasia equipment, and for the agents of the State to play judge, jury, and executioner assistant in dying, while spending up big on said boutique equipment on the basis that the public deserve only the very best… right until the last.

Arky
January 23, 2023 11:41 pm

Robert Sewell says:
January 23, 2023 at 11:39 pm

..
Did you try beating it out of her?

MatrixTransform
January 23, 2023 11:43 pm

Jorge,

when we are small, we just ‘are’
and as ee cummings put it ‘and down they forgot as up they grew’

remembering where you came from is one thing
and remembering why, is another.

the post-modern will destroy history, then you, and then finally it will destroy itself

and then we start again

Jorge
Jorge
January 23, 2023 11:48 pm

Australian Open 2023 prize money

SINGLES – men’s and women’s
Per player (128 draw)

Winner $2,975,000
Runner-up $1,625,000
Semifinalists $925,000
Quarterfinalists $555,250
Round of 16 $338,250
Round of 32 $227,925
Round of 64 $158,850
First round $106,250

Arky
January 23, 2023 11:52 pm

Let’s say we take a recently deceased (accidentally, NADT) Dr BG and plug him into the sensory input of 240 volts applied to his nads.
And as a result he jumps about, flailing and making squeaking noises.
Is this self awareness? The input has gone through his sensory gear and been processed and responded to.
Is this BG more or less self aware than the version lying quietly in a sensory deprivation tank dreaming of K’gari’s and dusky bints?

Arky
January 23, 2023 11:53 pm

Cigars and dusky bints.
Not whatever spell thingo did there.

Farmer Gez
Farmer Gez
January 23, 2023 11:55 pm

Compare and contrast an equally old culture.
Tamils in India produced high carbon steel around 500 BC and exported it far and wide.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 23, 2023 11:56 pm

You also need to be able to model what your internal sensors are telling you about what’s happening inside your brain.

If you define an organism as something with sensors, effectors, and the capacity for generating conditional probabilistic models of what it is likely to sense for any particular effector action, and if you suppose that the sensors can do a Bayesian update on the model, you can get quite a long way in describing cockroaches, cats, dogs and human beans. For human beans and possibly dogs and chimps, but not cockroaches, you need to posit the existence of internal sensors that give the brain some information about the organism itself, so it can try to predict its own behaviour.

The rest is general linguistic muddle which I try to avoid.

You might like to consider how a warship might be equipped with both internal and external sensors, including subprograms intended to detect and nullify interference with its own hardware and software, while having the capacity to learn from observations via its sensors. If it could talk to its crew and captain and could be taught to use the words I and me when talking about the program running on its computer, you might get some insight into the matter of self-awareness.

H B Bear
H B Bear
January 23, 2023 11:58 pm

Article in the Weekend Oz by a guy who was writing a book on Julie Gillard but he decided not to.

That was pretty funny. Dude cancelled himself to help the lying slapper. Didn’t help much in the end. As Ol’ Leathery said, she just needed clear air.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 24, 2023 12:00 am

you might get some insight into the matter of self-awareness.

And possibly not. But you are capable of thought, arky, so give it a shot and see what happens.

H B Bear
H B Bear
January 24, 2023 12:01 am

Don’t be silly. I would rather die than buy a prepackaged one.

Apologies. Lucky IT is not here,eh?

Arky
January 24, 2023 12:04 am

DrBeauGan says:
January 24, 2023 at 12:00 am
you might get some insight into the matter of self-awareness.
And possibly not. But you are capable of thought, arky, so give it a shot and see what happens

..
You go the ad hom, doesn’t add anything to your argument.
Notice I argued in good faith without insult.
You still have not pointed to a shred of evidence that awareness of self has ANYTHING to do with sensory perception.
No diseases, no cases, no comparisons of different states of consciousness.
Nothing.

JC
JC
January 24, 2023 12:05 am

On a serious not Bear, I’ve seen ads for Japanese concoctions. Have you tried any?

rickw
rickw
January 24, 2023 12:08 am

Compare and contrast an equally old culture.
Tamils in India produced high carbon steel around 500 BC and exported it far and wide.

Meanwhile, whilst sitting on some magnificent iron ore deposits…..

Actually, I was watching one of those DIY shows, apparently those little black balls that you commonly see around clay pans are actually iron ore and can be smelted into iron. Dude made an axe head. Came up with a very crude lump of porous iron and then slowly beat it into shape using some basalt rocks.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 24, 2023 12:14 am

You still have not pointed to a shred of evidence that awareness of self has ANYTHING to do with sensory perception.

Awareness of self is about having a model of how the part of the universe inside your skin works, and being able to update it. That requires data. Data is provided by sensors.

Arky
January 24, 2023 12:18 am

Data is provided by sensors.

..
What sensors are providing the data when you dream?

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 24, 2023 12:18 am

You go the ad hom, doesn’t add anything to your argument.

I was praising you, arky. Most ppl either can’t or won’t think.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 24, 2023 12:20 am

What sensors are providing the data when you dream?

No sensors, just muddled memories and a befuddled brain trying to impose some sort of pattern on them. At least that’s my guess.

Arky
January 24, 2023 12:27 am

No sensors, just muddled memories and a befuddled brain trying to impose some sort of pattern on them. At least that’s my guess.

..
So you are presumably self aware during a dream, and no sensory input is required.
Take the converse case of a deceased frog leg with a voltage applied.

Awareness of self is about having a model of how the part of the universe inside your skin works, and being able to update it. That requires data. Data is provided by sensors.

..
The voltage is data, the more the voltage the more vigororoes the movement. Presumably the frog leg is modelling the world insofar as the greater the signal the greater the movement required.
Is the frog leg self aware?
Is it more or less self aware than the dreaming beaugan?
One is processing data according to a model, the other having random experiences while absolutely minimising sensory input to enable those experiences in the first place.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 24, 2023 12:33 am

So you are presumably self aware during a dream,

No. Not in any useful sense.

The frog’s leg is responding to an input, but I wouldn’t call what it does data processing. Would you?

Arky
January 24, 2023 12:36 am

No. Not in any useful sense.

..
Dreaming has no utility?
..

The frog’s leg is responding to an input, but I wouldn’t call what it does data processing. Would you?

..
It’s a simple algorithm for sure, but it is data processing.
You could probable make a logic circuit out of a few of them linked together.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 24, 2023 12:37 am

Presumably the frog leg is modelling the world insofar as the greater the signal the greater the movement required.

You are confounding two things, information processing and the implementation by a nervous system. The remnants of the nervous system of the frog found in its detached leg may respond to a voltage, but it is not processing information.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 24, 2023 12:38 am

Dreaming has no utility?

None that I am aware of, no.

Arky
January 24, 2023 12:43 am

The remnants of the nervous system of the frog found in its detached leg may respond to a voltage, but it is not processing information.

..
Sure it is. And how can you complain about me reducing processing to a simple on/ off relay type system when the whole point of your argument in the first place was to reduce something as inexplicable and complex as self awareness to simple sensors?

Arky
January 24, 2023 12:48 am

Anyway, we have bored the crap out of everyone and driven the readership away.
I’ll cop you later.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 24, 2023 12:48 am

You could probable make a logic circuit out of a few of them linked together.

Please do so. I would like to see it.

You can make logic circuits out of all sorts of things. Brass gear wheels, for example. But there are clearly two distinct levels of description here, one is the jerk of the leg or the movement of the brass gear wheel, and the other is the information processing. It’s like describing a man writing his signature by the lower level description of the trajectory of the end of his pen, and the higher level description that says he is writing a cheque. Both are descriptions of what is in a sense the same thing, but the levels of description are different.

I don’t want to get into this, I would have to get into formal languages for even the beginnings of a discussion on the subject. I am not confident you would have the patience. I am not confident I would, either.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
January 24, 2023 12:52 am

Unlike Rosie, we are not doing much in the way of cultural exhibitions on this trip. The Rovanieme one was just thrown in with the tour times. We met up with my grandson and his mother at the Tate Modern and did go through some of the galleries there after they had left us, but my feet were sore from the train strike hike I had to do, and we weren’t interested in much of what was recent and on display. In The Times at Hairy’s brother’s place (a paper as perennial as the garden flowers surviving the extreme frosts, I had noticed that an exhibition just finished in London was going to be shown at Carlisle in the North and I’d hoped we might pick it up on our way through to Scotland, as it was showing the major works of the Victorian Pre-Raphaelites who were entranced with the Arthurian legends and beautifully brought them to life in paint. Sadly when we got there we found The Times had got the Carlisle dates wrong and that exhibition, headlined as ‘returning King Arthur to Carlisle for the first time in one thousand five hundred years’, was now postponed until just after we leave in February.

I was pleased to see the northern nature of the Arthurian corpus being recognised, but not of the view that this legendary king was anything but legendary, as he was in my assessment the old All-Father god of the northern tribes, known by many proxy names, a mythic figure who became personified in a manner entirely traceable in old textual materials in Latin and Brythonic (proto-Welsh) if you know where to look (which I have published about in 2018 in Quadrant as an original contribution to the Arthurian debate).

Anyway, be that as it may, I do love the ensuing mythological apparatus that has survived in fanciful old tales, remnants of an older cosmology. The Pre-Raphaelites did it so well.

DrBeauGan
DrBeauGan
January 24, 2023 12:52 am

Anyway, we have bored the crap out of everyone and driven the readership away.
I’ll cop you later.

Ok. Anyway, I’m running out of charge on my phone.

If the readership can put up with the name calling of the stouches we get on this site, they’re pretty tough.

Arky
January 24, 2023 12:57 am

Sorry.
Also chickens with the head cut off.
They’re doing quite some processing there, with the leg coordination and balance. So there’s that. All without a brain connected.
But probably not self aware.
I’ll leave it there.
Night.

Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
January 24, 2023 1:06 am

The Times – a perennial at Hairy’s brother’s place, I should have made clear. Delivered and read every morning without fail, the ‘authorised source’ for all news and commentaryin that household.

It really is a rag containing mainly lifestyle magazine features and only left-slanted news.
But even in that, you can see a certain turning of the worm. Last time I picked it up at Hairy’s brother’s place, they had a moderately ok review by Matthew Paris of a new book fighting the ‘woke’ culture of anti-colonialism (can’t recall the author’s name). It was by an Oxford don who was deplatformed (now replatformed) for his course on Ethics and Colonialism. The book argues for a good side to the British Empire. In this Times’ review of it, even though the word ‘right wing’ was used disparagingly and as not something that is ‘us’, there was a quality in the review that suggested extreme ‘woke’ viewpoints about the Empire and other things were not those of the reviewer nor were they something for any sensible person to endorse.

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